Rebuy/addon strategy
Posted by Joao Saro
Posted by
Joao Saro
posted in
Low Stakes
Rebuy/addon strategy
Hello.
I'm interesting to listen opinions, if it's possible from RiO's pros/coaches too. In general, we listen that we should rebuys how much it's possible, but recently I watch some reg guys that don't rebuy (or some big pros thinks some situations that addons don't make sense).
New lines? I would like to know reasons behind that or if it's false.
So:
2r1a/1r1a - should we rebuy/add-on all or don't rebuy (double rebuy if we loose?). Add-on for same initial stack make sense?
Unlimited - Max or not... should we stop at same blind level?
About addon: where is the line to not make an addon? Like, if add-on is only 10% of our stack? Or if we are almost break (like 2r1a and we are with only few chips).
Or the main reason it's only ratio chips/$ and where it's the point that we can skip.
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My own preferences are as follows:
1. 1r/1a: Always rebuy immediately
2. 2r/1a: Play very aggro on a single stack looking to double and find good multiway all-in gamble spots - double rebuy if I bust
3. Add-on: I've never had such a massive CL at break where I felt it wasn't worth taking the addon
4. Unlimited rebuys: I'll estimate what the min-cash is and only rebuy to the point where a min-cash would make us break even or only a slight loser.
Not saying these are optimal - just wanted to comment.
nice guideline tom, i wondered same 2~ :)
The confusion on this issue imo stems from players not realizing that brining your roi% down does not mean your hourly rate goes down. It also doesn't mean your profits go down.
I have much to say on the subject but the general issue is that players feel if they don't rebuy their roi% can go up because they can win monies for a cheaper price.
But if you aren't going to invest that saved money at the time somewhere else you may as well use it in the tournament you are playing.
Your return on investment isn't as good as the initial buyin but that isn't an excuse to not do it.
~lol..i couldnt make up my mind anyhow..that didnt help :S
Computerscreen, so with your point, we should rebuy at low stakes from out bankroll and don't do it at high stakes. Example:
Think with bankroll 5k$ and 300 BI average:
Bankroll high stake - 150 BI - 33$; Average - 17$; BR small stake - ex. 5$
Rebuys it's like high stake you can do it until 10$ and maybe should not rebuy and make an addon? And at 5$ rebuy or 3$ rebuy, you make how much you can?
Everyone has a theory, but heard some people studied that mathematical. For example, wich situations do we should add-on?
Any RiT's coach knows it?
now lets talk about what happens when you have to call an all in in a rebuy
the most chips you start with, the better it will be. rebuy and play it like a deepstack.
cubes tournaments after addons got huges preflop pots to steal, the key to win cubes and storms, is your grind after addon period (most players plays are like lions before addon but they turn in sheeps after it). before addon its just std deep play, widden ur stakoff ranges, people like to gamble a lot to dbl up.
for my part, after my starting rebuy, i rebuy only once, i take every addons obv,remember that if you click more on that rebuy btn, youll not be BE at min cash
thats how i play it :o
Good topic. Here are my thoughts based on exact game format:
Normal rebuys (3r, 5r, 55r, 100r, etc.): I'm generally rebuying whenever the opportunity presents itself. The tournament has to be in my bankroll for me to play it, so I'm fine with rebuying. Of course I'm not gambling or looking to abuse the ability to rebuy, because that's not good for ones ROI, but if I need to rebuy, I'll rebuy. Exceptions are rare and not even specific. I'll almost always addon. Exceptions would be if I have like 10x starting or something, and I think the additional starting stack worth of AO chips isn't going to be justified in the return I get on that investment. Basically there comes a point when the chips you gain isn't worth the cost of those chips. I haven't done the math on it personally, so I don't have an exact formula for this. Though I know they're out there.
Cubed MTTs: Same rules apply as above. Since there aren't unlimited rebuys, the chances of getting a mega stack are reduced (less overall chips in play), so it's even more rare to achieve a stack where I don't think there's mathematical merit in adding on. I don't think I've ever purposely skipped the addon in a cubed MTT.
2r1a (quad) MTTs: I typically rebuy twice initially, and addon. My thinking is that I want to have an equivalent stack to the weaker players, and even to the strong players on my right, so I can apply full pressure. I see great players take different strategies in the 100 quad for example. Some do as just described above. Others just play the initial 100 buyin, and addon when it's time. I assume they'll rebuy if they bust. I think these players are concerned that for a $400 investment, they won't be able to achieve as high an ROI as they would with a 200 or 300 dollar investment. Especially in a tournament like this, where first place is generally $6k, or 15 or so full $400 buyins. I think there's definitely something to that. But in my estimation, it's more valueable to be able to stack a weaker player for 3 $100 buyins and 100-300 big blinds depending on the level, than it is to conserve initial investment from the get go. This is in my estimation, and again isn't based on a bona fide math formula.
2x chance: I'm thinking of the $55 and $109 2x chance turbos that Stars runs. You're allowed one rebuy in the first hour, but only if you bust. Here I'll generally take the rebuy if I still have a playable amount of BB (10-15+). I consider the strength of my table too. On weaker tables I'll be more apt to rebuy with lower stack sizes. I'll also consider my position at the table for the next deal. If I'm in EP or in the BB, it might not be a good time to rebuy. On Sundays I'll generally always rebuy, except when I'd be extremely short or in very unfavorable circumumstances becasue the prizepool is so much bigger than it normally is.
Thanks, Nick.
Yeah, I usually do that, but recently I'm in doubt about 2r1a because we are so deep. I think it's valuable too, but started look some regs don't do it.
Different it's 3.5r turbo 180m, I only play sometimes but some regs are trying no rebuy until bust or 75/150 blinds and add-on.
Another view: add-on, some players talks about ratio/chips. Like, If add-on is 2x initial stack with same price, obvious it's more valuable than a 1x initial stack.
And I have a new question about add-on: I have same strategy - not add-on if chips counts aren't too much like only 10% my stack - but it's always valuable if we are too short (mostly not unlimited rebuys, of course)? Talking more about some extreme situation like have 2k chips at 2r1a (each rebuy/add-in 3k chips).
In general, I think rebuy when it's possible (even I play very standart... just adjust to weak plays and shoves - not call all-in w 78s to try grow up my stack) but at same time I'm wondering about some regs tendencies.
P.S.: I remember now, rarely I leave a rebuy phase (I play mostly non-turbos) but already happens when I was in tilt or tired from session and think maybe it's good not rebuy like when I think it's not good open new tournaments.
But it's different reasons.
There is a huge difference in the benefit you get from rebuying in full in a 2r1a than in a 3.5r 180m turbo. In the 2r1a, we are playing a non-turbo, and have the chance to win 300bb from weaker players. Of course this amount that we can win goes down as the blinds go up. But, during the entire rebuy hour, we still have the chance to win some very big pots off of weaker players. We then get to use those chips for quite some time, as we have long levels and the average stack stays deep pretty much the entire way. In 3.5r turbos, we don't start out nearly as deep, and the average stack becomes very short pretty quickly, so this advantage doesn't really exist. Basically your investment can get washed away very quickly in a 3.5r, so why invest? Now to note, I'm not saying that's what I would do or what I think is correct. But I think that's what the regs who are playing that way are thinking. If you're playing a lot of 180 mans, I'd encourage you to search through some forums and see what material there is out there on these things. Maybe try to find a study group of guys who play the same games, and see what they think.
I think you're correct with your thoughts on adding on. I think when you're short, and adding on is any reasonable amount of actual chips, you should take it. One thought that is just occurring to me as I write this, is that with taking the addon, you always know how much you will spend. It costs X amount of dollars, and it happens one time. No problem, we can always plan for this expense with our bankroll and with the buy-ins that we play. But with rebuys, where do we draw the line? We could end up rebuying 11 times, and all of a sudden we have to get 3rd in the tournament to break even. This will crush our ROI! If you play a 3.5r, buyin at the last minute, and take the addon, you know you're spending $7 every time. Yes you have less chips than most, and therefore less chance to win. But the times that you do win, you make more money, so it should even out to some extent. Again, I'm not saying this is best, but I can see that it's possible that it could be best! It is definitely worth looking into, and maybe playing around with in a few sessions.
That's pretty much me too, only leaving rebuy periods when I'm no longer feeling like playing.
I hope this answers your question fully, if not, keep asking!
Oh and last thing, yeah I never "gamble" during rebuy hours. I'm not afraid to go bust and have to rebuy, but I'm not taking extra risks just because I can rebuy. This is poker not gambling! We build our stacks solidly :)
Nice points there Nick thank you.
Ive seen some people both live and online do a strategy of late registration plus addon to know how much they are spending and as they know they have an edge on short stack, does it make sense? Yes
But when a player is confortable with big stacks and post flop game why to be afraid to rebuy 11x? Is not going to happen often and if it is, isnt the same as open a new sit? Even better as the rebuy is not raked. Or is the only to not resist the temptation to play different poker just because we can rebuy? Or even cut down variance? As I see it, its plusEV to start from the beggining and as deep as possible when you have the edge. Any special bankroll management to have in these cases or to have a cap on rebuys for control purpose?
Thanks for your sharing and thanks Joao for the interessing topic.
Hy,
What is the best strategy for playing 180m 3R+ TURBO SNG on PokerStars? In the sense of number of rebuys and add ons Do you stars with double stack? Haw many rebuys do you make? Add On or not? Is there a case when you don't make the add on? Is there a case when you make more rebuys than you would?(say you just lost your stack and is 3min till the add on, what do you do?)
Thank you
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