Preflop...

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Posted by posted in Low Stakes

Preflop...

SB: 15835
BB: 3840
UTG: 2056
UTG1: 1790
LJ: 3937 (Hero)
HJ: 5925
CO: 9708
BN: 1394
Preflop (600) (8 Players)
Hero was dealt 9 3
UTG folds, UTG1 folds, Hero raises to 800, HJ folds, CO folds, BN folds, SB folds, BB folds
Final Pot
Hero wins 1400

72 Comments

Loading 72 Comments...

computerscreen 12 years, 2 months ago
The hands I consider to be -ev are the ones where you do the math and the math shows the are -ev. The ones I think are +ev are the ones that turn out to be mathematically plus ev. Curious if anyone here has seen the math, or is just guessing?
Ondra Machálek 12 years, 2 months ago
Can you maybe show us the math that says that minraising from MP 10bb deep with the nine high offsuited 5 gapper is +ev? I think everyone would want to see that.
Ondra Machálek 12 years, 2 months ago
You need to subtract the number of gaps by the highest card's rank, so: 5 - 9 = -4. That means that opening 93o is -ev by 4 poker units. Suit would add 2 units, but it would still not be enough.
computerscreen 12 years, 2 months ago
Your formula does not include how loose our tight player left to act are. For example if everyone left to act only played AA, then surely raising ATC is profitable. The real question is, how loose do our opponents have to be in order for our min raise to be no profitable. That is, what % of hands do they need to be playing for us to fold? I know the answer, does the person who called me a troll know it?
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 2 months ago
well aa will be dealt every 11 rounds on 9 seater approx, and if all players play aa only you would be profitable, but what kinda assumption of nonexisting circumstances is that?
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 2 months ago
Very important but not negligible issue im seeing is :in newer approaches keeps reappearing profitablethat is much more applicable to table play and i cant see as good aplication and use of termm profitable in tournementsif you are profitable to input 300000 chips in 600000 pot because ur equity is lets say 60 procent, its irrelevant if you are out of the tournementwith as little chips you are sitted with at that table though something maybe profitable in longrun, you dont have such longrun in tournement and your neck is on the lineand i cant accept argument you will be out of 1 game and profitable in another, because in next game you will be faced few times with same decision over and over againand if it comes through as profitable once next time third time you are out again~ your poor neck is chopcoped by AA
such decision making is umm questionable
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
o yup 200 is small blind~ so ye that changes calculation
so is
risk 800 to win 1050 is 250 per 1 fold 1 call but is 1250 if get 2 folds 1 call so maybe worth a risk~ -
but 2 calls or shove over raise is~ -1600+1050 which is - 550
depend table can decide on players stats but never know
yest i had very quiet tbl not defending blinds i raised twice AJ suited from mid and i played nitty and very little which should gave me a credit but i had reraise and a shove both times ~ ppl simply were dealt good cards same tme~ so its v unpredictable
other day i followed ur adviced and i raised crap and had enough folds to make it profitable
it is all very situational so ~ 93 can have bigger ev then aj suited cause i did fold it on reraise and a shove both times
Tom M 12 years, 1 month ago
Bottom line: MTT's are about picking spots well and not just playing your cards.

You can just play the strength of your hands if you want a lifetime of mincashes and frustration.
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Agreed NLHE is rarely about the hands we must showdown. Although we will always consider our cards. But I don't think we should leave that to be our bottom line

so if hero is getting 1050 for 800 he is getting 1.3125 to 1 on their money?

To turn that into a %...(this is the tricky part for most, scary math)..... 1/(1 + 1.3125) = 43.24%

So we need folds 43.24% of the time to make min raising profitable?

Correct so far?
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
So we might notice something interesting, since we are risking 2 bbs, to win sb + bb + antes, we will always need to get through 43.24% of the....and it doesn't matter what position we are in...
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
regarding position i think all positions do lil better then button~ when button tries steal its assumed its a steal and blinds have big tendency to defend, if steal comes from early positions its riskier but usually more profitable if table is nitty and tight
mike 12 years, 1 month ago
position does matter as it is harder to get one person to fold(ie in SB) than 5 people that said i play tight and wait for at least 94o :)
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Yes but we have decided that regardless of position, we need our min raise to get through just less then 50% of the time. It doesn't matter if we are utg or bu, its still 50% of the time....
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
umm..player stats or if no stat observing how they play how tight loose are they~ ? its not a garantee but can be a start point~ mathematical distribution of good cards as AA KK on every 10 rounds so 1/10 noone has nuts and using maths in that direction and potentioally 3beting crap...but in all such situations u can have some ranges flat you like KQ AJ or AK flat ~ id prefer have hand that has decent odds like suitted connectors~ i think we get dealt those enough time we dont have to use 93 incorporated in play as an option? because if we just pick other hands we have hand of some postflop value as in 67 suited should have avarage 45 percent versus randoms unlike 39 off has totals 40 , 5 percent isnnt neglidgable in long run specially if u playing with craps :) ?
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Yes I will play 67s because I can win money preflop AND post flop. But I will play 72o here because it wins money preflop, postflop I am not worried about. I am suggesting if it makes money preflop, we should not be afraid of postflop.

Why fold a profitable hand like 93o?
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
UGH...i would like not to fold as much as i do..but tables are usually active not 1/10 but wa way more and im not sure i can get it to work profitabely for me, when i play and THATS very very little something redicilous little YET ppl simply gotto call anyway @@ even after spending 2 hours with me at table which is usually goodside cause im usually ahead
but me playing 93o is for me ATM still science fiction ~ i do go crazy and in a hurry or wanna flip to double but thats usually 56 67 78 and 46 and 68 i love~
so it might be perhaps proftable for active player but not nitty 1 ? if you are involved in 40 percent hands or so u can pick many , and many times 39 will work, but if you play as lil hands and i am and u re called often anyway...u cant paly 93 o ~ maybe when i get to be LAG and ppl are insecure with such a person around 93 will be profitable for me too
and i will try it out next time i play 180 ppls turbos and will let u know how did it go
and~ just came to my mind im using hud :D now and imported all hands i played for a year and ~ it showed not sure exact meaning of number~ but it says 93 OFF made me total loss - minus 177160,00 in tournements unlike 68 suited that made me 74002.00 win
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Well im not suggesting to play 93o, but I am suggesting we should know EXACTLY how often each opponent needs to fold, in order to know if a min raise is profitable preflop or not. AFTER we decide its +ev to min raise, THEN we will decide if we need a post flop hand or not.

For example, if we are on the button, in position, we don't need a post flop hand because 'position is power'. If we are in the cut off but the button is short, we don't need a postflop hand because we will call the short button if he 3bet shoves, and we will play in position vs the blinds if they flat.

We only need to get through 43% of the time....so we add up each of our villains hand ranges...if we are in the cut off we have..... button + sb +bb < 43%. So if there total combined ranges are < 43% we can (and generally should) min raise atc, and fold postflop if we are worried about our cards.
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
perhaps everyone has lost interest but my point is only half over. We know how often we need to get through, but we dont know how often we actually get through, how can we play poker without this information? If we don't know these answers then we are just guessing.

Nobody here wants to know how often we get through?

Heres a sb example....if we have 12bbs with antes bvb and we min raise, the bb has to reshove HALF of the deck 43% for it to not be profitable. That includes t7o, 75s, j4s, if villain doesn't shove theses, then we should min raise 100% in the sb.



Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
yeee i idnt lost interest, but im not good in numbers im just having a guesses, its rare you get a chance to be sb vs bb as often so if you raise 1 round he may reshove you and next round you may nor get opportunity to do same if ppl entered a hand befre that~ so basicly you are gambling the whole situation~ maybe he folds maybe doesnt~ can always try if you estimate it will be long term beneficial~ and can rely on players stats tho ppl tend to be very annoyed by sb versus bb and to reshove very light~ so i cant say with certainty is it long term profitable or not~ villain in BB most certainly wouldnt reshove on you 43 percent but if he see ur stats opening sb 100 percent he might start~ or if he/she pays attention to what u are doing~
when ppl say proofitable in terms of percentage and maths in tournements and MTTS ~ i still cant follow up on how much exactly is that applicable to tournements because so much is situational in tournement~and depandable on stack size position and players around
even if something is 70 percenter if you have utter nit in game opening 3 percent UTG u simply fold AJ no matter its stats and your stack size, or at least i do regardless maths
same applies if you have maniac in bb you simply fold cause u may estimate reshove 80 percent and if you have tight player you may continue min raising every sb
as far how often do we need to get a fold for it to be profitable, i think u said " We only need to get through 43% of the time ~ so i not gonna dispute that i took that as a fact
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Oh, Aleksandra, do you use poker stove?
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
:S umm..lol..NO ..i cant make myself install windows yet, i installed only now some apple hud version which is total bugged, but no poker programmes work on apple so..notes and what i have in head :S
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
ahhh ic well definitely get an hand equity calculator, then you will be more accurate. more accurate means more winning! Once you get used to it then we can relate the numbers to min raising. I'm not sure what is best for apple.
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago

"its rare you get a chance to be sb vs bb"

Instead of looking at your hands 1 tournament at a time, look at your hands as ALL bb vs sb hands in every tournament. Then you will see we spend much of our poker careers dealing with bb vs sb




"maybe he folds maybe doesnt"

The question is does he fold more than 50%? We don't care if sometimes they call, as long as its less then 50%




"villain in BB most certainly wouldnt reshove on you 43 percent but if he see ur stats opening sb 100 percent he might start"

No villain will not, remember I play 2000 games per month against some of the best turbo grinders in the world. If I raise 100% nobody will 3bet shove the bb with 43%

When was the last time BB shoved 10-12bbs on your sb min raise with T7o? Nobody plays back that much, so we can always min raise 100%





"when ppl say proofitable in terms of percentage and maths in tournements and MTTS ~ i still cant follow up on how much exactly is that applicable to tournements because so much is situational in tournement"

If a situation is profitable you should ALWAYS take it. If math says we will gain chips on average by making a certain play, then we should not worry about sometimes we lose because most of the time we win.








computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Yes it might not win you money today, you might lose short term, but you might LEARN long term. Pay attention to what hands your opponents 3bet shove with 15 or less bbs. Take notes on each player and their stack sizes.
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
ye im aware nothing in poker is shortterm result oriented~ ill try and i do write 3 bet shoves with M if M was low, and dont display M if stacks were normal
people go wide if they go low~ specially the reg players~ so someone shoving J7 off on M 3 doesnt mean its that players range at all
Cary Pall 12 years, 1 month ago
Do you really think you're getting through 5 people in a low buy in 180 about 50% of the time? I don't. They aren't sophisticated enough to realize how strong your raise looks with your stack size, they'll flat a lot, and some will shove way wider than 10%. Now, if you have certain reads that villains are tight or are capable of interpreting your raise as super strength, then by all means raise any two.....but I just dont see fish folding that often here.
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Cary, I think we should look at the math first and then decide. Do you know how often each player has to not fold to make 50% total? each player playing 10% is not going to be enough. We should find out exactly what each player needs to play, and then discuss whether or not we thing that is likely.

Until we do that we are just guessing, aren't we?
Cary Pall 12 years, 1 month ago
You're the one playing the 180s right now and have a better idea of what the average field is like...that's why I want to hear your math and rationalization. My overall knowledge of these is from two years ago and what I know from watching 180 videos currently. Maybe I'm expecting them to be typical call stationy donks like in the past....but then again, most of those players were Americans and they're all gone now.
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
From what I understand add %'s works by multiplying, so if two players play 50% of hands each, then its .5 x .5 = .25, they player a combined total of 25% of the time. Which makes sense because a lot of the time they will both play a hand but that only counts as 1. We don't care about the difference between 1 player entering the pot or 2. We only care if any non zero amount players (player 1, player, or player 1 and 2).

So we will make an assumption, that each player left to act will play an equal amount of the 43%. That is we will split 43% 5 ways and just observe the result. From what I understand to do that we take the 5th root of .43. If there are 2 left to act we will take the square root, if there are 3 left to act we take the cubed root.


5th root of .43 is .84468 which is the amount of folds we need from each player. So then 1 - .84468 will give us the amount of hands each villain must play which is .1545 or 15.5%.

So each villain must play at least 22+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+. If any villain folds even 1 hand then its profitable with ATC to min raise.

Some villains may play more hands but many will play waaay less, which far makes up for those that are too loose.

Furthermore, if the blinds flat we are happy to cbet any flop as we give ourselves a good price on betting they will fold 2/3 of the time (which they will). So we are not worries about the blinds playing loose. And we can cbet without cards.

whats most important though is how can we say a hand is not profitable preflop without doing this math?
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
ATC is really LAGGy but since u re expert and know maths and ur results support it, you for sure are right, ill try implement some of this tho SOME not all im far away of having a feeling for it :) beside maths
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Yes don't try to change your game yet, keep studying, but you can use it to think about the game differently. Its obviously spewy if you only partly understand. I'm not an expert and I'm not always very good at math, but this is the way I see the game.
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
:) thanks for sharing the way you do it and play it, im still learning implementing anything new is still process with me but i love to think of the game while i play it so ill pay attention and try to feel and see spots you talked off :) thanks again

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