Math question - raising the button - the difference between a 9 handed table and a 3 handed one
Posted by Stelyan Georgiev
Posted by
Stelyan Georgiev
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Mid Stakes
Math question - raising the button - the difference between a 9 handed table and a 3 handed one
What do you think guys - is there a difference and how big is it between having 5-6 people folded before you and you being first on the button? Have someone calculated this? Of course it matters on what kind of table you are, but lets say its an average one. Thanks in advance!
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Afaik the card removal effect is rly slim in this case and shouldnt rly change ur opr range on the button...
Whether cards are dealt or not is irrelevant, what we really want to understand here is, how do our opponents adapt to playing 3handed vs full ring, and thus how does it affect our opening range otb. This will prob answer your question.
Ironically players should defend more often in the 9 handed table but in practice that is not the case.
I was referring the card removal thing mostly. There are agro tables where people will open every suited A or K and a lot of offsuited ones, so if they all fold to the button, would not be different from 3handed and by how far?
Did the comparison below for FR v HU a while back - same sort of things apply. Generally would say that players should open tighter and defend less at full ring table after it's been folded to BU.When we play heads up we have 2 cards and don't know anything about the other 50. When it's folded to us in the SB 9 handed, we know 2 cards and know that 14 of the other cards were 7 combinations that didn't match players opening standards. Overall the odds are that the remaining 36 cards contain a bigger percentage of high cards than in heads up (bunching).
To check it out, I opened up ProPoker Tools and ran some simulations. If UTG opens 8% then I give them 9%-100%, BU opens 25% but folded so their range is 26%-100%, etc.. Results vary depending on what ranges you give to the players that folded but the chance of someone having a stronger range always increases. Also the chance of high cards coming on the board increases.Screenshot comparison below. The hand range figures are self explanatory (about 10% higher in FR when folded to). After that is: rainbow boards (no change), flop no card higher than a T (12% less often in FR), straight friendly boards (no change), flops with a single A (10% higher in FR). Screenshot is attached.
Did a couple of other comparisons which are difficult to do a screenshot because they are PQL, but the takeaways are that in FR when it's folded to BU or SB, big cards play better than small ones, so pair mining goes up in value, set mining goes down and if you have a close decision (jamming or calling) go for it with big cards, avoid with small connectors & small pairs. You don't want to adjust by much, that would be a mistake too.
For example, if UTG has A3o, UTG+1 K5s, UTG+2 Q4o, MP1 J3o, Mp2 K2o HJ J4o and CO Q5o (but he folds coz button is aggro 3bettor), which can easily happen in a random distribution, 7 out of 16 highcards are already out before the button/sb/bb are to go.
Another example is, if UTG gets AA and between UTG+1 and CO everybody got rags, leaving a possible 14/16 highcards. I just dont think the arguments made in your post really justify the cardremoval effect, which is nihil imo. We also have no clue on what openingranges are for people, i.e. a nit might just fold AJo utg, or a KJo from utg+2.
Think i can provide tons of other examples where the calculations you provided just arent as concrete or definitive as they might look. Or maybe i'm missing things here.
Hey Cairy, you're right. There are a lot of situations where things can work out as you suggest.
Given that each of the scenarios had 5 million random simulations run, I would suggest that a representative number are included in the results. They do change if you change the ranges of the players who folded - and I outlined the method so you could investigate yourself. But for it not to make a difference at all then players need to call 100% or fold the stronger parts of their ranges - both of which seem unlikely.
It's just a simulation, if you think it's helpful, great, if you don't, no harm. I just thought it was relevant to the original question.
Steamer,
Thanks a lot for the deep analysis, I couldn't done this myself. I think it should matter weather or not you have 6-7 guys folded to you or its just 2/3 handed. Anyway, I was more of a curious than like I think it can help a lot to us playing the game. Do you think that its such a difference so it should matter to our range and we should be considering it? Obviously there are other factors as antes being less in shorthanded and being on final table, but nevertheless?
Stelyan, you're welcome. Feel free to hit the like button ;)
I don't think it makes any difference to short handed play because most push shove charts and tools like ICMizer, Flopzilla etc don't consider what ranges people have folded anyway so they give the "right" answers for short handed play anyway.
I think it makes a (small) difference for full ring - mainly in the texture of boards you are likely to see.
Like button hit!
The ante difference 9 handed vs 3 handed is way more important than any card removal affects.
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