Out Now →
×

Final table shallow stacks ATC BvB

Posted by

Posted by posted in Low Stakes

Final table shallow stacks ATC BvB

UTG: 24300
HJ: 90164
CO: 61851
BN: 11030
SB: 30940 (Hero)
BB: 51715
Preflop (4500) (6 Players)
Hero was dealt 9 4
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO folds, BN folds, Hero raises to 30640, and is all in
Result are irrelevant, so i cut it out.

The question is:
is it good or not, knowing that BB is uber fish and our only risk is when he wake up with a good hand?

ICM wise it starting to be +$ev starting from 19.9% villian calling range according to icmizer.

But mine question is it good risk to take?

13 Comments

Loading 13 Comments...

John Shamwoww 12 years, 1 month ago
I'd definitely fold this.

He has you covered and you're not in serious danger plus you are just passing the blinds. UTG is about to lose a chunk of his chips and BTN has ~4bb.
ivanb 12 years, 1 month ago
I'll passing it too in normal mtt. But it's 180 man where it's doesn't matter if i can get one or two payout jumps. All that matter in those is top2, even top3 not that huge jump in $. And with my current stack i don't have chance of top2. As chip leader have 3x chips and two other guys 2x me. And when i will be on BTN if no one push before me i would be called by BB super wide as his stack is shallow. So i may miss BTN push chance.
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
It is not correct to say in 180 icm doesn't matter, or that we are only concerned with the top 2 spots. Also 10bbs at a 180 final table is a huge stack, which leads me to believe you are undervaluing your shortstacks. I don't think we need to fold here, jamming is going to be +$ev since bb will generally call tight. Folding the very bottom of our range is ok, but I think we should at least consider r/f or limp and go. BVB in short stack poker is one of the most profitable spots we get, if we can make money off our entire range then we should.

As we get used to using these alternate lines we will search out reads on players that will help us decide which line to use vs which players
ivanb 12 years, 1 month ago
I was amazed when i got called by weakest ace. And assuming it's in his call range it's become -$ev push. The guy was running 5/0 stats and i had him on same table from bubble. Year ago i never could imagine rec fish to call here below A9s maybe.

So i have question for you now. Shall we assume any A in call range in BvB nowadays, no matter who sits on BB. Haven't played those games for more then year, and just started at jan.
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
No you won't assume a random would call with A2o at all, also just because he calls A2o doesn't mean he calls JTs K9o K9s etc. so don't necessarily put those in his range just because the slider does.
ivanb 12 years, 1 month ago
When i say it becomes -$ev in icmizer i mean if i select tight range + all aces w/o adding weak kings etc.

What i start to notice that regular fish and even big chunk of regs in 2.5$ 180 play much wider then nash. Sometimes i see very bad push/calles from regs.
Should i tight my ranges then?
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Ya, you'll tighten up a little when they call you wider for sure. This is why I don't recommend shoving wide cev ranges in icm spots until you get a feel for the table. But the other important thing is if you table is being aggressive and spewy then you can play tight as well because other players will bust each other.

One of the ways I judge this by is the blind levels, if theres still 16 left and its bb2000 then I know theres likely tight players left. If its bb1000 at the final table its seems likely to me that there are spewy players around.

But usually players call tight and we can still shove slightly wider than nash. But IMO a 180 players job at the final table is to not shove his 10bbs stack equity into loose calling players.
ivanb 12 years, 1 month ago
Well i am in huge 300+ games downstreak anyway. About 600k chips diff in excepted and actually won preflop AIs /o\ Not even speaking of all times when PS deal me can't fold type of cards against villians much better hands, thats i consider as badbeats too. So mine game judging currently isn't objectif, i just tend to run into worst scenarios currently.

computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Keep in mind 300 games isn't a super bad down swing, I like to think of 180s in 1000 game chunks and honestly its prob better to think of 3000 game chunks. But nonetheless we should always look to improve our game whether we are winning or losing in the short term.

I'd advise you never to look at chips diff because its never accurate, and all it can tell you is too keep studying. For most players its just an excuse.

I know what you mean about not seeing your game objectively. Its tough because in turbos we make our money off dead chips, by taking a lot of fold equity. But if we get on a losing streak we begin to tighten up in spots we need to be taking.

For instance in this spot I still think your play is fine, and I don't really like villains call. Vs someone I know is shoving atc it might be fine, but vs a normal bvb range at that level (44+ AX, and some BW) a2o is not really doing that well.

Did you close the table right away, or did you note that villain called 10bbs eff ft A2o BvB? thats an important thing to start noting and will help you crush tables will avoid these land mine type players (I realize A2o isn't a crazy loose call).

I think you would appreciate my graph, as I spent some time crushing the 2's then went through a big breakeven/downswing, where all I could do we push through and study hard. Eventually I broke through bigger stakes, and that ability to know I can improve my own game will help me in the future.

Lastly if you aren't considering things like limping and min raising in this hand then you are leaving to much up to all in coin flips. You have to look for creative spots.



ivanb 12 years, 1 month ago
Yeah ofc i noted his call, even realising that chances of us being on same table in future is small. And i taking that swing lightly as i learned how to smile at all those 70/30 AI losses looong ago.

I have to admit that currently mine creative playing is almost at zero lvl. Since i start to lossing so much i hugely reduced creativity of all forms. More like straight forward game:
amount of BBs - check, Hole Cards - check, Push. Next table :)
As for improving i usually look through mine hands at push/fold stacks to see if i could fold here, or push if i didn't. But when all u see in HHs is how your KK was crushed again by AKo on FT bubble for chiplead stack it's hard to find and focus on leaks really :)

(thats fun but somehow i am not at downstreak in hyper turbo sats. Played 8k FPP worth of storm sats with FPP = $ more then SNE lvl :D )
rickybobby1 11 years, 11 months ago
Something you could try that I didn't see mentioned. It works against fish so if he is a typical fish who would only call with monsters and plays passive you could just limp the SB and bet half pot on any board. Fish would hopefully check behind and fold most flops.
mentaaalist 11 years, 11 months ago
For me it's a clear fold. But with some trash suited hands. I would assume raise/fold against a fish who folds too much. If he is a passive fish the chances of he playing back is near to zero.

Be the first to add a comment

Runitonce.com uses cookies to give you the best experience. Learn more about our Cookie Policy