Does this 5 bet need to be a jam?

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Posted by posted in Mid Stakes

Does this 5 bet need to be a jam?

SB: Serebity_p: 384728
BB: Torsten9669: 196083
UTG: Zluka2010: 187440
HJ: 41g3r: 179870
CO: Raaadzio91: 375150
BN: robtinnion: 325897
It's the final 20 of the 8$Rebuy 17.5K GTD and average stack is at about 36bb.Villain is a mid stakes reg on a 13K games sample(57$average buy in maybe high stakes also) so I believe he knows what he is doing and he is playing 35/30/17.4 and I doubled him one orbit back where he opened from 30bb UTG+1 min I 3 bet called 88 from the button on him and he showed AQo(I think he presumed that I was playing a little agro to at previous tables ).The big blind was a solid player and the button was tightish and I think that is a spot for him to open fairly wide.
Preflop (9000) (6 Players)
Serebity_p was dealt A K
Zluka2010 folds, 41g3r folds, Raaadzio91 raises to 12000, robtinnion folds, Serebity_p raises to 31355, Torsten9669 folds, Raaadzio91 raises to 59875, Serebity_p raises to 118655, Raaadzio91 raises to 374550, and is all in, Serebity_p calls 255895
I wanted to get a few opinions on the hand and was wondering what you guys think!I think I have 2 choices here:
1.5 bet jam for protecting the 100K in the middle that represent 30% of my stack(I'm saying this because of the fact that it's a late in the tournament and I want to also protect my stack ).And was thinking only 5betting this size with big PP JJ+
2.Is the route I chose.My logic was something that I wanted to give him the impression of FE and also not to leave him much room for a call IP if I 5 bet a little smaller(maybe this is wrong and he never flats) and was kind of thinking that he can 6 bet jam something like an Ax thinking that he gets me of my bluffs and when he does get called he isn't absolutely crushed,or his pure bluffs if he has any.I know I wan't him in the hand with this range but this opens up the small PP 22-88 which I am not crazy about(I know there are more Ax combos if with my blocker or am I just dreaming about this scenario).So do I want this?(meaning that does he have what I dream of very often or I am in a flip most of the time because he just knows he is getting flatted so often that is not worth it for him given his edge on the remaining field and the newly acquired 2x average stack)

He ended up having 88!By the way does my sizing suck?(I think I would have done this with big PP JJ+)
Or is this spot pretty standard considering the 6 handed and I am only result oriented(guess I wouldn't have noticed it so much if I would have won)


Hi guys! I'm new to the community(loving it by the way) and I never posted before(just watching and reading until now) hope it doesn't stink.Plus if ended up giving to much info/less let me know!Can't wait to see some thoughts!(maybe I can get you guys to give an opinion about the hand I described before where I doubled him off with 88 is it ICM wise considering I had 100BB chip lead avearge 36Bb,is it ok to flip there with that guy when the rest of the field is soft?)

7 Comments

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GameTheory 11 years, 11 months ago
You should decide if you want to play AKo for stacks preflop 60bb effective before you make the first 3-bet.

If the field is soft and you don't want to risk busting on a hand where your equity advantage is not big, then you should probably play QQ-AA for stacks preflop. That has direct implications for you 3-bet and 4-bet range, you should be more polarized after the 4th bet. And if he rarely flats 3-bets then you should be polarized on the 3th bet also!

As played you could've still flatted the 4-bet. The advantage of flatting 4-bets with AK is that if the flop is Kxx or Axx your opponent is gonna assume that your range is capped at KQ or AQ, inducing many bluffs. Your equity edge against is range is likely not that big with AKo, but it is likely that he will make mistakes against your hand postflop.

The problem here is is that you started a raise war against this player. If you don't want to lose a raise war you should bluff a lot, which in turn results in light stackoffs. This has high variance and your edge against a good player will be minimal.

This strategy is not consistent with wanting to play small pots against the weaker opponents to avoid high variance.

About 5-bet shoving, I really doubt any good player will 4-bet fold 88 after putting 1/6th of his stack in, especially if he shoves is after you make a small 5-bet.
Serebity_p 11 years, 11 months ago
I had decided that I wanted to get it in against his wide opening range but I was debating the manner in which to do so.I was wondering if it would be ok to take a low variance route but I guess this is obvious now that I think about it that was probably the way to go.I realize now from your answer that he probably would have never 4 bet his smaller PP because he would flat me IP and any other pair is a 4 bet get it in which I don't love.
I like the alternative that you gave me about calling his open and the explanation for it.
What do you believe his 4bet/6bet jam range could be apart from the above mentioned PP 88+?
I really like the answer:) by the way
GameTheory 11 years, 11 months ago
As far as I know there are no low-variance get it in routes.

Just calling his open is also an option, then you would have a stronger calling range than his open range, allowing you to take down many pots postflop while still reducing variance.

But I mentioned flatting his 4-bet to 60k, you keep all the weaker hands in his range and you don't have to stackoff on J9854.

Most good regs won't 4-bet/fold 88 since it has no blockers but it is ahead of your AK/AQ combos.
I've seen aggro regs get it in for 60bb with KQo, but I think that is spew. So my guess would be 88+,AK,AQs,(AQo).
Ozzy 11 years, 11 months ago
Given skills of average player in this tournament and our stack at this point, I think going into preflop war vs the best player left in tournament (that's my assumption, knowing how does field look like deep into 8+R and how good of a player Raaadzio91 is) is kind of spewy.

First of all, you have to ask yourself - how should your gameplan vs best player at the table look like? Personally, with these stack sizes, I would just avoid going into big preflop wars with him, give up trying to find profitable spots to 6bet shove and just try to smallball against him - ofc doing some 3betting and ocasional 4-bets to stay balanced, but mostly playing small preflop pots and looking to use your stronger range against him. I wouldn't ever stack off my 60bb's without KK+ (or QQ in blindwar), because that's not the edge that we're looking for deep in this kind of trny.

Vs this guy I would just try to play my AK in passive way, keeping the pot small preflop and playing vs his wide range of hands, propably including all dominated Ax'es and most of Kx''s. You want to put pressure on smaller stacks, owned by weaker players - you got almost 2x avg, so your highway to good stack on FT is wide open.

On the other hand, if you don't feel like you got enough edge over your table (let's say it was 55+R instead of 8+R and you were surrounded by top regs), high variance way of 3bet/5bet/calling is fine, I wouldn't ever 5-bet shove, you have to give him chance to spew off with some weaker hands, as he's propably never calling 5-bsh with worse. If you've immediately decided you want to go for stacks, I think your sizings here (as played) are just perfect.

Personally, biggest stack I would like to stack off against him would be about 230k in this spot.
Sam Grafton 11 years, 11 months ago
It's obviously chip EV to take the line you have, but you can certainly consider flatting. There's all sorts of good things that can happen if you get squeezed behind and there is no need to play entirely fit or fold post.
Teddy 11 years, 11 months ago
I´ve seen people 5b/fold in your spot, so giving him a chance to shove over it seems like the best line.
I think you make it too easy for him if you aren´t willing to have AKo in your reraise range 60bb deep oop vs a wider than normal CO. This will obviously cause you to flip/get in bad/bust sometimes, but you will be in a great spot the majority of the time and I think this is the way to go if you are playing for a top 5.
I´d also have prefered to 3b in the case that the bb picks up something good to shove that you dominate, as a backraise is going to look really weird.

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