BvB Postflop Situation

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BvB Postflop Situation

HJ: 16135
CO: 17902
BN: 27018
SB: 34917
BB: 47823
UTG: 11992
Preflop (750) (6 Players)
Hero was dealt A 7
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO folds, BN folds, Hero raises to 1250, BB calls 750
Flop (2750) T 7 Q (2 Players)
Hero bets 1455, BB calls 1455
Turn (5660) Q T 7 Q (2 Players)
Hero bets 2755
This is a hand a friend of mine played in a championship 6-handed event on PokerStars.fr, he figures to have a big edge in this tournament, assume no relevant reads. My preference is to make it 3x preflop but that's not important.

Do we like betting or checking the flop? If we check are we check/calling or check/folding? If we bet do we like a bigger bet?

Thoughts on our turn action? If we bet, how much and what's our plan for brick rivers if we are called? Should we turn our hand into a bluff on any rivers? If we check, are we checking to call or to fold, or if it's size dependent what's the inflection size?

I think it's fair to say that we would save ourselves some stress by just check folding on the flop but is that actually the best play? Would our play be any different if it was the $200 rebuy?

15 Comments

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Lucas Greenwood 12 years, 4 months ago
Pf w/e I agree that a 3x is better particularly being 70 blinds deep.

Flop: I would typically bet this but I could be convinced that c/f is better, its going to be a very tough hand to play oop, unless we hit a 7 or A, that said I still like betting, because we take down the pot enough of the time that I expect to show a profit.

Turn: I would c/f. He has enough hands in his range that have drawing dead, there is merit to betting to fold out weak spade draws, k9,kj,89,j9 etc but I would rather avoid the headache especially because in position doubt he folds strong tens. So basically we need him to fold turn for the bet to be profitable, and when he calls turn we need to consider bluffing rivers to get him off a ten and hope he doesn't have a missed draw that either made the best hand or opts to bluff us when we check.
Jason Koon 12 years, 4 months ago
- Bet/fold flop. going to be too ambiguous if we check call.
- I don't think check folding is an option on the turn. I understand his line here is to bet turn and probably check call a lot of brick rivers. Way too many combos of straight draws to c/f turn.
Scott Hall 12 years, 3 months ago
Agree with the bet turn, check/call brick rivers. Obviously owning his missed straight draws is part of it, but, I think having the nut 7 is crucial. On this turn I expect us to be able to value bet against other 7s and I don't expect villain to be capable of betting dicey rivers with that showdown value (i.e. Js river with 78cc) so we can check/call or check/fold on river with pretty good accuracy if that read is correct. With 78s i'd be way more inclined to c/f turn but it's close bc we can still soul read J9dd on a 3c river. But you value own yourself when he has better 7s, so the difference is huge.

As for sizing I would make it an amount where I can accomplish 3 things:
1. threaten to 3b jam if he raises (a move I might make with certain hands in my range but obv not with this hand)
2. discourage him from bluffing or semi bluffing
3. encourage 7x to call.

I think the sizing in the op looks good, maybe a little more.

As for bluffing the river, I think you are just getting to be a little fancy even thinking about it (although obv you want to make that play if it's best.) but in this spot I mean if it's a dry river he could call thinking that we missed a draw, and if the river completes a draw then he could have that hand. You could possibly come up with rivers where it would be best to crai but it's tough to process all that information accurately and quickly to make it in the moment and therefore overall it is best to just have a bit safer gameplan in a tough readless bvb spot in a soft tourney.
James Obst 12 years, 4 months ago
Agree with you guys that betting flop should show a profit, esp given we can improve to a gin hand sometimes. I think it's really unclear from the turn onwards and am interested to hear anyone else's thoughts
Matt Wakeman 12 years, 3 months ago
Generally speaking people are peeling in pos. from BB fairly wide here so I prefer c-betting to fold out some smaller equity segments of his range rather than c/f vs a lot of that (when we are almost always facing a bet otf on this texture when we ck). Furthermore, we can still actually be c-betting for value here anyways given that the texture allows for villain to have a lot of non-paired decent equity hands.

The turn is interesting because I think we can efficiently c/c, but it will undoubtedly leave some awkward river situations. Even though betting the turn has some merits; We can still bet for value against non-paired equity hands, there is also the possibility of some of those hands bluff-raising here. I think c/c is a decent plan and evaluate rivers (calling non K/8/9/T/spade rivers perhaps).

I think 3x pre would be better at this stack depth and would also cbet a tad bigger (65%) on this texture).
BadBeatLust 12 years, 3 months ago
If opponent is half-decent I would probably make it a bit bigger on the flop but if he's just a random I would make it even smaller because it just wouldn't matter what we bet there since our aim is to take it down there and if he hasn't hit or have a draw (KJ etc.) he will fold.

I agree with Jason on the fact that we don't c/f every turn but its still an option when a 9+ card comes.

I disagree with the fact that 3x is better than 2.5x because it then seems that all we want to do is take the pot down there and if the opponent is anywhere close to paying attention you could get 3b a decent amount of times.
James Obst 12 years, 3 months ago
I'd prefer to make it 3x with my whole range just to give the BB a worse price and discourage having to play OOP, meaning we'd have to 3x with AA etc, but I agree in a vacuum it could look as you're saying
James Obst 12 years, 3 months ago
good stuff I like how many different opinions there are in this spot. I think there might be some more to add about possibly turning our hand into a bluff on cards like Js etc, I'm sure it's possible to go a lot deeper into the makeup of a turn calling range (or indeed flop) to decide how best to play different rivers, even if it's complicated/hard to process in the moment
Tom M 12 years, 3 months ago
We're pretty deep and b vs b always has weirdness to it these days. I usually 2.6-2.7x SB into BB for reasons James said already.

I like bet/fold flop because checking feels like giving up since so few cards will make us want to do anything aside from check/fold turn. I probably size a little bigger to make him have to invest that much more in a raise which should make his range seem narrower.

As played, though, I'm sort of tempted to see if we can check/raise turn. Too spewy? It's really villain dependent. We have to know if we can take him off of Tx. Obviously not a play to make vs. a station.

I don't like just betting out because Tx is going to call again as will a lot of drawing hands. We'll probably fold out 7x and random float attempts that were hoping to bet IP and take it down, but that's about it.

A lot of rivers will suck and make us not want to 3 barrel, and 2 barreling just to check/fold river just feels like the weakest thing ever. That's why I am wondering if there's merit in trying to pull off a turn check/raise to fold out Tx and some weaker type of drawing hands.
Ben Grise 12 years, 3 months ago
Since we are talking about all the options we left out check raise flop to really define your hand on flop or does this put you in too many tough spots on flop. It would really define hand on flop, but I feel like it's tough for us to put him in a tough spot as we are relatively deep on flop even with a check raise. Any thoughts?
James Obst 12 years, 2 months ago
would it define our hand though? aren't we still getting a c/r called by most/all the draws and all queens and most tens this deep? I think it's a legit consideration in a tough tourney (200r) if we were shallower but I'm not sure how effective it could be in this spot against a frenchie
Tom M 12 years, 2 months ago
Yeah - agree with James. So many draws are still calling a c/r. We're not defining much. We're just turning this into a bigger pot where we give up by the end unless we run a really high variance line where we turn bottom pair into a bluff and I think that's pretty terrible in b vs b spots where no one ever folds.
cold7betfold 12 years, 2 months ago
Checking/calling turn seems best to me. He could float on this flop and could have enough draws.

Question to all: What do you think about check/raising blank rivers?
Benjamin Wilinofsky 12 years, 2 months ago
Turn is a really interesting spot that we need more information to make a good decision on. I think I like betting more than checking principally because it makes it harder for him to v-bet thinly on the river (unimproved with a ten, or when he improves to a jack, for example). I also think the metagame doesn't involve much turn raising; if we knew villain would raise sometimes with KJ/J9/AJ hands I think this spot becomes a real headache, and someone with a decently balanced turn raising range might move this into our flop x/f range.

What do you think of the merits of x/r/f? Villain has a pretty wide range of SD + 2 overs hands that are getting pretty close to the correct price to peel when we bet this size, especially when 89 is going to bluff us on a K river. I'd expect a lot of floats to bet and shrug-fold turn because his range has a lot of Qx in it. Are we costing ourselves too much against his Qx/stubborn Tx hands and giving up too much equity when he decides to check back K9?

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