At how many BB's should I start folding here?
Posted by Risva10
Posted by
Risva10
posted in
Low Stakes
At how many BB's should I start folding here?
Blinds: t250/t500 (9 Players)
MP: 22,207
MP+1: 15,473
MP+2: 16,817
CO: 21,402
BN: 21,205
SB: 8,385
BB: 6,145
UTG: 7,583 (Hero)
UTG+1: 1,638
MP+1: 15,473
MP+2: 16,817
CO: 21,402
BN: 21,205
SB: 8,385
BB: 6,145
UTG: 7,583 (Hero)
UTG+1: 1,638
Preflop
(750)
Hero is UTG with
J
J
, , , , , ,
Here for 15BB I think its an easy get it in spot with no other info on villains, but when do JJ become a fold? Do you think villain would play differently if the OR (me) had 30BB? Would you still call at 30BB?
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For 30bb, the answer is really dependent on the villains, specially on MP2. If you think he has a bluffing range vs UTG, then JJ might become a call, but its probably still fairly close.
MP2 probably is flatting more hands at 30bb eff vs UTG, for example 99, TT even JJ that he is 3bet calling vs 15bb eff.
I recommend you use Equilab to play around with villains' ranges to see how JJ does, a specific answer to your question will not help you much since the solution is really sensitive to the ranges.
I was actually looking at the spot on ICMizer. With its standard ranges JJ was making more than 4 BB, even when I adjust them, cause ICMizer has really loose ranges, its still printing for 30BB. I didnt feel like it really reflected the pool tendencies and wanted a second opinion.
For the 15bb case, JJ is a fold given tight villains ranges.
For ultra wide ranges we can see that JJ is still not making much. What ranges did you use to make JJ a printing call? Would be interesting to know if we are using completely different ranges or that the programs are giving considerably different results.
It seems like I might had made a mistake on the ranges, just look how much more JJ make when I add AQ on villain's shoving range (1st picture).
Pretty unusual spot though, opening from a 15BB stack UTG and getting that much action I should probably be more cautious.
This is if LJ is 3betting 99+, AJ+, KQs and CO 4bets JJ+, AK+.
I can't really distinguish the small numbers, but it seems that in the first image ICMizer has you calling down to 44??? Is that vs AQ+ and JJ+ for the shover? What about the 3bettor?
Even in my calculation with really wide ranges those hands don't even come close to a call. Is that because you also have AQo?
My bad seems like the resolution is not the same as in my pics. Anyway yes when I add AQo in villains range that happens. Probably because the total combos of unpaired hands (both for 3bettor and shover) is much higher than paired ones so you should be flipping a lot. I cant find another reason.
Would shove this 15bb preflop for sure, makes life easier :D When you ask about calling with JJ in this situation it depends on ranges as mentioned above. I guess that CO cold 4bet shove will be always nutted af unless it's some big fish - wouldn't be surprised if it was just AK and JJ+ because MP generally has quite strong range here too when he 3bets and he just shouldn't bluff ever when 3betting vs 15bb stack as he basically doesn't have fold equity vs your tight UTG open with this small stack unless you use some mixed strategy of raise/folds, raise/calls and shoves, which isn't optimal with this small stack. Ofc you can induce with best hands and just minraise, especially when there are weak players on the table, but 15BB and less we generally play shove or fold preflop.
I would generally fold this with deeper stack unless playing vs big fish or some crazy aggro player. Ranges will be pretty nitty in spot like this given the positions and action.
Yeah you are right about deeper stacks. But really with JJ I will always minraise get it in for 15BB its not like you will see this spot come up often. I am opening from a 15BB stack UTG, I might get 3bet and get it in easiily. I think its too good of a hand to push 15BB UTG with. Also MP might be 3betting some 99, TT maybe even 88. I generally play tight so from a 15BB stack UTG I might raise fold some good blocker hands like KQo, ATo, depending on the table image I've given myself the past hands and if there aren't many regs on the table.This way I can raise call some AA, KK, QQ, maybe JJ. But anyway it was some massive BIGGER tournament on a Sunday, I think you should definitely be minraising some of these.
Ye, would call with this stack ofc as it should be slightly profitable and you never know if CO just doesn't spazz with some shitty broadway in those low MTTs or smth so in practice it may even be more profitable than in theory. Even if it is was a mistake it isnt a tragedy as we may lose very small amount in this situation...it will be close to break even or smth or slightly losing play at worst. I'm not sure about that raise/folding with this short stack tho as stack preservation is pretty important this short and you will get 3bet by someone very often...I think you may get 3bet by someone in like 1/3 of the time sou you will quite often just throw away like 15% of your stack. I've read some interesting article about opening with short stack and would just advocate to shove or fold and maybe raise/call top of our range as I don't think players on those stakes will exploit this even if you only raise with top of your range an never raise/fold. In LP or smth it may be possible to raise/fold some hands even with this stack as long as there are nitty players behind for example, it may be more optimal than risking your whole stack when you can often win by risking 2bb. As I said I would most likely just raise with top of my range when there are weak or aggro players so we can get more value from hands that would fold to shove.
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