Another limp spot with a big fold?

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Posted by posted in Low Stakes

Another limp spot with a big fold?

UTG: 95744
UTG1: 322718
UTG2: 70903 (Hero)
LJ: 93640
HJ: 45192
CO: 40557
BN: 61812
SB: 101260
BB: 81174
I have the most advantage at the table, 1 very good player, a few meh regs. I limped the previous hand and folded to a 9bbs shove last hand. This is a final table.
Preflop (10500) (9 Players)
Hero was dealt J J
UTG folds, UTG1 folds, Hero calls 7000, LJ folds, HJ folds, CO raises to 39857, and is all in, BN raises to 61112, and is all in, SB folds, BB raises to 80474, and is all in, Hero folds
Flop (198943) J 7 A (3 Players)
Turn (198943) J 7 A 3 (3 Players)
River (198943) J 7 A 3 3 (3 Players)
Final Pot
BB has Q Q BN has J A CO has T A BN wins 136371 , BN wins 42510
Dodged a bullet!

29 Comments

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Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 2 months ago
Limping JJ to induce shoves is oki to do, but induce someone to shove not 3 ppl, way hand is played~ 3 players going allin after his limp i think its optimal play at that particular spot to fold, because one of 3 alliners has overpair and when we are faced with 1 opponent calling we are taking chances, faced with 3 opponent allins with JJ we are for sure behind, and hitting 2 outter is 10 percenter win so even if it hits sometimes 9 times it does lose so i think FOLD after what happened and in what order
I know everyone is pushing play to win first 1-3 places, but calling off this hand after 3 players in similar spots will just make you finish the game 9 out of ten and you wont get any shot to try to win so i think fold is good there ( not to get into why he limped JJ and that they should have been shoved first place )
Clayton Mooney 12 years, 2 months ago
I think that if you are limping to induce, you should realize that you aren't folding--no matter the action--and situations like this, where you fold JJ preflop with 10bb, are straight kicks to your pants. If this were lower stakes and you wanted to induce, a minraise would probably work better, because they won't understand that stacks are not deep enough for fold equity. They will probably shove over with any pair and a wider range of aces, where a shove could convince them to fold their 22-66, weaker aces, etc.
computerscreen 12 years, 2 months ago
If we are limping and 3 players go all in in front we are folding kk, confidently and correctly. This isn't really lower stakes as there are multiple professional players at this table (pro meaning they are making a living.
z0fman 12 years, 1 month ago
yea well this could be true due to icm considerations cause we gain tons of equity on the final table when 3 other ppl go allin...but still the end result is u fold JJ with 10bbs...yea if u dont wanna simply shove...and want to play tricky...a minraise to induce rather than a limp would be much better imo
Cary Pall 12 years, 1 month ago
So, you're limp-folding KK here as well? Would you be posting this hand if the regs showed down A10, AJ and 99/1010/AQ/AK? If I'm the bb here, my thinking is.....loose-passive (aggressive?) player who limps everything from 72o to KK in this spot in ep w/ 10bbs limps in, 6bb reg jams really wide in LP, button is a reg who realizes all this and rejams <9bbs somewhat wide.....I wake up with 99/1010/AK/AQ in the bb and lots of dead money in the pot and jam....and you fold JJ-KK along with all of your K4o, 72o, Q3o, etc. and only call me with AA.
Cary Pall 12 years, 1 month ago
I might just min-raise to induce as well. I think if there's ever a time to fold JJ in this spot it could be when you min-raise and then have the other 3 go all in. The fact that you min raise 10bb utg into short stacks and THEN they all get it in, well now you might be able to get off it, since everyone's range is much tighter.
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
You can only min raise to induce vs reg if you also have min/fold hands in your range, which none of you do. You will get eaten alive in this field if you do that. Also we cannot really limp fold vs the short stacks here, hence we shouldn't be limp calling. The reason I am limping is because i limp folded the previous hand. If we are going to limp fold, we need some limp call hands in our range.
Cary Pall 12 years, 1 month ago
At exactly 10bb or less, I'm only min-raising monsters vs. fish who aren't capable of realizing I have to be strong. There's no need to be balanced vs. fish that aren't paying attention or understand what I'm doing. I'm balancing my entire shove range vs. regs, which is why I shove this to begin with. So, there's no reason for me to have a min-fold range here or a limp-call/limp-fold range. If I'm a tad deeper, then I have both a min-fold and min-call range.
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
there is one good reg and a few regs and a few fish. I don't need you to tell me what you do because its quite predictable and obvious isn't it? A player who plays the way you described just gets a light blue color and his whole game is spelled out. Also whats more important than what your are doing in my spot, is what range your are shoving into my JJ
Cary Pall 12 years, 1 month ago
There's no need to come off as such a dick, dude. Maybe it's just your phrasing and you don't mean to, but c'mon man.....I'm always open to discussion, esp. unusual situations and finding ways to gain extra edge on regs, but no need to be so condescending to me, man. I'm not the best player in the world, in 180s or anything else, but I'm not an idiot, either.

I don't care if what I'm doing to fish is obvious to regs. I don't have to be balanced vs. fish, just optimal. When a reg starts calling me correctly, I then adjust again and start making more outside of the box plays. And I don't mind throwing in some odd plays like limps in these spots, etc. simply b/c it will look suspicious to regs and will sometimes work better than a normal min-steal the first time or so you try it.

Again, I still have a hard time believing that you're only limping trash 1.8% of the time...50/50 mix of JJ+ and trash. If this is the case then I'm obviously not jamming my 99/1010 etc. if I'm the bb. But, this isn't the case. Based on your posts it feels like your limping 50% of the time with only 2% or so being nutted. So, based on that alone, you can see why I'm so eager to pounce on the limps and iso the others widely. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm only forming my opinion based on the the hands you've posted so far, since I don't know you and have probably never played with you.
computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Yes Im not being a dick just blunt, I realize you have a good grasp maybe even better than me so I am being blunt so as to be quick, I appreciate the comments. But as for what I am doing i dont' think, unless you understand all the hands I posted that you are able to predict what I am doing. And the point that you know too is that this is about adjusting and re adjust and readjust. What I am doing is adding in psedo ranges that give the impression I am wider or tighter in certain spot.s
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
:)) im gonna do a girlie thing to do and to please you both to :) give credit each other that no ill meaning but argument was meant and remind you showing respect is even more important if argument become hotter :-)
im reminding you both because im sure you both are willing and with good hearts anticipate in discussion~
Cary Pall 12 years, 1 month ago
And I think it's pretty effective in a lot of spots, provided players aren't being astute and picking up on what you're actually doing. I think these plays are actually really interesting vs. fish or passive players or regs who are seeing this for the first time. Most people were just tossing aside your posts as trolling or whatever, but I understand the points you are making and find them interesting. Still, the main problems I have about playing the trashier end of your hands like this is that 1.- you won't be playing playing with most of these players long term enough to have the desired long term metagame effects....and 2. Players (regs and a few special fish) are just going to instinctively pounce on these spots a lot and you're losing a decent percentage of your short stack too often IMO. I think the trash end of your range works best at FT where there's mostly passive fish, which seems to be exactly what you did in most of your posts. Conversely, limping the nutted end of your range vs. regs has an immediate positive effect....but those players will adjust in the future, so it's not something you can do every tourny.

I'm only playing on Merge right now since I live in the US. But, something I've noticed in recent times is that a lot of the higher stakes top OPR players are making the same, at first strange, short stack EP limps....and in general they're folding to my aggression. When I started seeing this in the last couple months, my first reaction was WTF is this top player doing limping a 9bb stack utg and folding to a shove, etc or showing down J9o on the times it gets to showdown, etc. I'm starting to understand the reasoning behind it, although it's still up in the air whether it's sound or not. Most good regs would argue it isn't. This was my first reaction, too, but I realize a lot of what they're trying is player dependent and situational and in some cases may be better than a shove or fold, etc.

computerscreen 12 years, 1 month ago
Yes exactlyl, the point is, we must not throw out plays just because standard is they are not profitable, I can assure a min raise with 72o and 8bbs eff from the button is profitable vs most players but std. says you can't do that. When players say you can't do that, I ask them have they done the math, but really I'm toying with them because I haven't found almost anyone who knows the math on that.

As far as metagame etc. the 180 man field is often complained about as being reg invested, but these regs are tag and abc robots, they take notes and adjust but thats it. They can't mix their ranges and therefore allow you to run over the game as long as they can 3bet shove 99 at you and smile if you fold. Do they know how wide they can be? Of course not or they too would be min raising q2s utg.

I play these regs everyday, very good regs are not able to adjust to this because in order to adjust they must first understand how to play 96o 12bbs in a min raised pot with 2 callers.
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
im reacting to your conflict because all boys in poker tend to pick up a fight very fast and i wish not your
conflict to escalate since im enjoying both of your veiws and opinions :)

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