Top x % in PLO
Posted by crazyriver
Posted by
crazyriver
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From The Ground Up PLO
Top x % in PLO
Is there any tool, preferably free, to visually show the top % in PLO or just tell me how high is the input hand in the top %?
Personally, I have a problem visualising the x% range in PLO. Let's say, in the course it's, for example, recommended to open around 12-16% from EP. I can see, more or less, what hands to target, but I don't really know how much they make up of the whole range.
Not sure how low I am supposed to go with a given hand type, for example should KQQ5ss on Qs or QQJ7ss be opened? Where in the top % do these hands fall? I would like to be more precise, which hands fall into this 12-16%.
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Not visual, but I've been practising according to these instructions:
https://www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=431398
I couldn't get the ProPokerTools Desktop to install, but the Web version offers the Rank. That should be enough I guess. Thanks for the hint!
This is going to be a reasonable starting spot. I did something similar 2-3 years back when I first started playing plo as my main game. Those ranges, however (and my guess is that the PJ guys would agree) are moderately obsolete. I would also disagree with the frequencies in that post. First off 15% utg is definitely too wide at most tables 1/2 and below. If you're going to use the PJ ranges strictly, I'd stick with the 12% utg, the 15% in mp, 25 in the co and 50 otb. In reality, when working with my students and in my own game I prefer a pretty strict 12% utg and 16.5% in mp, and then more fluid ranges in the CO and BU with 26.5 and 45% being reasonable defaults.
The poker juice ranges are based on the PPT rankings which is going to make them favor raw equity over playability. Because of how passively you're going to need to play two tone boards out of position in PLO you really don't want to be playing as many rainbow, monotone and triple suited hands as the PJ rakings recommend. Further, their ranges are going to be way heavy in pairs. I personally don't like playing any pairs 99 and below that don't have a suited ace or another pair until the cutoff as middle and bottom set are just difficult to play well out of position. I also found the PJ ranges to be too heavy in some of the weaker TT-KK combos (consider how shitty it is to have JJ33r on JT5 two tone in a 3 way pot oop.) As a very quick general rule, I would add a lot more AXs and double suited 3 broadway hands as well as connected 55-99 headed by a single or double suited ace to the PJ ranges and . You really want to prioritize having an ace in your hand especially from up front. This serves two purposes. One, Axs hands will have a lot of robust equity on a lot of boards. Two, when you have an ace in your hand, the frequency that someone at the table has AA goes down which will reduce the occurrences you will get 3 bet.
As I mentioned previously, I had a similar problem as the OP did a few years back. Ultimately the best solution I found was to find a very solid set of GTO ranges and remove all pairs below TT that didn't have the above qualifiers. I then threw everything left over into PLOCalc (the best software on the market imo) and trimmed down what was left such that I would get about 12% according to their vs25 ranking system.
To answer the OP's initial question, the rankings that the PIO guys did in PLOCalc is the best thing I have seen in terms of ranking a top X% of hands. What I really like about the PLOCalc rankings is that they actually have 7 ranking systems built into the software in terms of how loose or tight of a range you are facing. PLO is an incredibly dynamic game and having a ranking system is not going to be all that effective unless it factors in the range it is up against.
JohnnyUtah is there any other software you would recommend for GTO or would PLOCalc be enough for study purposes?
You're welcome. I think PPT ranges are a bit different to Pokerjuice. PPT ranks hands based on raw equity when PJ also notices playability. That's why for example medium rundowns are higher in PJ rank. I'm still sure you can't go very wrong by using PPT. By the way, how do you like course so far? I've been thinking to buy it.
It's too early to say, so far.
I've gone through the first chapter on approaching fundamentals. It's quite concise and gives you ability to think and work about how you approach poker, also suggesting some other materials/software. I found a few concepts similar to Mental Game of Poker, the book I worked with a couple years back, which I can definitely recommend.
And now started with preflop. At the moment, I'm focusing mostly on my preflop game, so I don't think, I'll finish the course anytime soon. I don't want to rate it too early, without having the full picture.
In my case, I've been clicking button in PLO micros for some time, and actually wanted to start working a little bit on the game and not feel totally lost, so decided the structured course like that might fit me perfectly. And so far, I'm happy with it.
Thank you very much JohnnyUtah for your long comment, I really appreciate when much more experienced guys like you give us novices help and directions. That really proofs the game of poker isn't dead and probably never will.
I totally accept what you're saying about ranges. During my short time with this fascinating game of plo I've studied PJ ranges and found also hands you mentioned very problematic. That's why I don't want to strictly follow their ranges but tightened up considerable. I think these ranges are good starting point, but without decent knowledge of playing postflop, they're too wide and especially at the loose micro tables where pots are mostly played multiway, too often lead into spots where money is lost. I said starting point, because I think they're still decent and better than nothing as most of time advanced solvers and other softwares come with a price tag way beyond micro grinder to reach.
Despite its deficiencies, I found PJ a very good software, especially now when they developed cloud version. Price is relative cheap and for me personally, it has been a huge help when practising for example range definition for villain.
Thanks again for your reply.
JohnnyUtah i also use PLO Calc and have written my own ranges based on some PLO Mastermind Spreadsheets. Could you tell me how to implement real GTO Ranges into PLO Calc or could you for example sell me a set of them since you have them as PLO Calc - Ranges??
gogi1986 how did you find PLO Mastermind?
Darren Chandler If you want a very indepth view on PLO its probably the best platform for this. Although IMO i think GTO doesnt work that well for PLO, especially for low limit, since ranges are all over the place and there are many multiway spots - this is just not solveable. Maybe if you play PLO100 and above, GTO might be a thing. But below this you are better in exploiting with solid Preflop ranges (which should be at best near GTO) and good general concepts - like presented in the course of EMTY :-D. But thats just my opinion.
Thank you so much. I'm currently playing PLO $100 having just moved up. I am working through Emty's material and building my preflop ranges. I just needed some other software for doing some analysis.
Great interaction guys! Happy to see so much involvement! :) Goldsmith JohnnyUtah crazyriver
Darren Chandler I personally use visions or the plo trainer tool from plo masterminds when i look at an equilibrium solution. But, if I'm doing any type of in depth study on a particular hand, I would guess that I spend 80% of my study in plo calc. I find that you can create much more realistic models of how humans actually play in plo calc. That said, there is a learning curve to the software as filtering through that many isometric combos can be cumbersome.
Which one do you prefer between Vision and PLO Trainer?
Are the results determined quickly in PLO Calc? I was told running sims in Monker solver could take days or weeks.
Darren Chandler You cannot compare Monker vs PLO Calc. Monker is a EV based Solver and PLO Calc is a equity based solver. I would compare PLO Calc with what is Flopzilla in NLH. Calculations in PLO Calc are done within some seconds, whereas in Monker it could take days. Unfortunately PLO Calc is limited to headsup. But for multiway spots i would recommend Pro poker tools, which is one of my favourite Poker Softwares overall. I hope this answers your question :-).
gogi1986 at least it answered mine. I've been thinking PLO Calc, but seems like for now I'll stick with PPT. Thank you.
gogi1986 thank you so much, I am already using PPT, but wasn't familiar with these latest software tools (hence the post).
Damn, sorry fellas. I haven't logged in to RIO in a while, and am now just getting this. Normally I get notifications via email. crazyriver, the two are similar, I probably prefer PLO Trainer bc I can slice and dice things up better. That said, I haven't used visions in a few months, so I don't know about any updates. Yeah, Flopzilla is a reaasonable comparison, but I would say that PLOCalc is like flopzilla on steroids given the powerful syntax. To be technical, PLO Calc is not a solver though. It is a very powerful equity calculator and range explorer. And yes, it is only for heads up pots, unfortunately.
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