Hah, wouldn't want to compare myself to Mush. I would fall flat on my face. Mush is very, very selective of the games (and opponents) he plays, you and I aren't as we play zoom. 

As for advice, I would recommend that you meditate or listen two soothing music while you play. If you are angry and everyone annoys you, it sounds to me as if you have to find out a way to let out your steam. I suggest you take on some kind of sport. Doesn't have to be at a high level, just have to be a sport where you can let your aggressions out. Try soccer or boxing training (don't know if this is what it is called when you don't box against another person, but just goes to the gym to beat a sack of sand). 

Hope this helps.

Still, this is a nice graph, Chael. 

Good luck!

Meditating is good advice although it doesn't work on me.  I can also find myself getting super annoyed at players at times. 2 things help me with this..

- Don't under estimate your opponents. Don't think you are so much better than the fish. Be more humble and just acknowledge it's a game where people play different albeit some players will be playing worse than others. At least for me this grounds me a bit and helps me from getting pissed off when someone does something weird.

- don't play to long sessions. Take breaks even if its just for a few minutes. I like to just take a walk around the apartment every hour. Go to the kitchen drink some water, look out the window, think of something else. 

If you are getting annoyed at the other regs just try and leave your ego at the door. Sometimes you get outplayed sometimes you outplay people. Just try and stay level headed and make the best decision you can every time.

I think if you post your graph in BB/100 instead of currency you would get a more accurate picture. The reason you have sharp edges is most likely due to a different amount of stakes played.

identify what it is that annoys you about the other regs, then work on fixing that issue in yourself. 

Ideally the other players at the table shouldnt bother you at all, they are just variables in an equation. Tommy Angelo has a nice bit about how they are just trees (from his series on DC), they are just there and they are sometimes in the way, but its silly to get emotionally affected by them as they are just trees.

Is it an ego thing, you feel you are better than them and it pisses you off they are at your table and taking your money with their stupid plays?

If you want to get a graph with straight lines, then you want to do the most you can do to raise your bb/100 as high as you can. This means playing in the games that you have the largest edge in (most likely the lowest stake out of all the ones you played). Play another 100k hands at only that stake without jumping stakes.

The greater bb/100 you have, the less jagged your graph will look. Also, I'm pretty sure even beating those zoom games is an accomplishment in an of itself. I'm pretty sure that even the best are only getting from a 2-5 bb/100 winrate in those games, so you are pretty close to the top already!

Just work on lopping off that c-game and tilt and you should be good to go. Have you been keeping a physical poker journal?

Out of curiosity was is your EV bb/100?

I think the true grinders out there don't really stress what their graphs look like. They just want to play for the sake of playing!

Have a listen to this interview with nanonoko, it might put some perspective on things.

Your graph looks good. :-) When you're as good as this, the path to really good is one of deliberate small tweaks.

We can all learn from Mush's approach, because his way is so very well aligned with the goal of making money. But you don't have to do all that he does. Try to identify just one small change you can make to become a little more mushy. What would that first change be?

You mention "fun" and I also think that's important. Getting consistently good results is fun. Having a method you can trust makes you feel good, too, as does the sense of controlling your future. Therefore, making small, deliberate changes that improve your results, should make you feel better when you play. And in my experience, this is what happens.

Small, deliberate steps, and keep doing it. I stress "deliberate" because there should be an explicit causality chain involved. "I change X so that Y". Think things through, and change the obvious things first. 

How do you guys make sure you don't autopilot? So just clicking buttons while staring at the screen.
I try to break down hands, but after a while I just forget to.

Thanks for the help, btw. Coming off like a huge retard.

Mindfulness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc buy his book, read that, start meditating every day with dedication, you will see results. I have the same issue as you, and when I start meditating it pays off after a while. funny how after a while I quit, start running bad and realize I have to start again. If you practise it outside of your sessions, it will get easier during sessions too and you will tilt less. Basically you can't tilt if you are in the moment and can't autopilot. Therefore I think it is something all poker players should strive for. Edit: can I post links to another coaching site? I know a good series that would help for sure.

More concrete advice: 

"With Winning In Mind" (Bassham) is a very good Mental Game book with lots of very concrete advice. How to set goals and work consistently to get there, in practice. Drill, drill, drill.

This is probably what you need right now, because you already know what has to be done (as in, you can express it in words and know, rationally, that it's a good plan), but you haven't really trained it yet. You don't feel it. But saying it again and again and writing endless lists and plans won't make you feel it any stronger (the "paralysis by analysis" pit, where nothing gets done). So you should not do that.

You need to take action and have some concrete, executable plan (a measurable goal, a timeframe, and a practical plan to get there) for what to actually do on a daily basis. Basshams book is good for that.

This might not be a realistic option for you, but have you considered maybe playing some normal non-zoom games? I was struggling to learn PLO and losing consistently for about 140k hands (almost exclusively zoom) I was kind of a rakeback whore, trying to grind out Supernova while working full time and playing low stakes.

I was basically spilling money over that whole sample of 140k hands and it was driving me crazy really almost to the point of just quitting forever, because I've been consistently beating a 2-5 (very deep) live PLO game for 2-3 years, but I was just throwing money away at .50-100 online zoom.

Anyway, (after a very difficult internal dialogue)(I am borderline OCD with getting VPPs and supernova) I decided to give some normal(non zoom) games a shot. Lo and behold, for the first time in 140k hands I started winning, regularly.

Went off on a bit of a tangent there, anyway my main point was that switching out of zoom games made poker way more fun for me again. Fun like it used to be before I got into this ridiculous zoom grinding out points mode. I didn't realize it but zoom poker takes away all the things I find fun about poker. (meta game, table dynamics, etc) I know you mentioned autopilot a few times, for me switching to non zoom games automatically turned off the auto pilot, because I was playing poker again. Trying to find ways to win every hand, making loose calls on the button against bad players, 4 betting some speculative hands, just all kinds of new avenues open up outside of the zoom arena.

So maybe it might be beneficial for you to just quit the zoom temporarily and play some normal games to remind you why poker is such a fun and amazing game(did wonders for me)

Like alwyas havnt read the other posts...  Dude that graph is fine, your bb/100 is 10.0?  ya?   Like in the universe Poker is all relative.  A small win is the same as a big win, take shots better.  The only difference is n your mind and your balance sheet.  

If I could play perfect on every spot I also won't feel satisfied as I have a results oriented view of the game after bad results, I think the first thing to do is to understand the swings of the game so being close to 100% of perfect decisions can be attainable, what I'm trying to say is that I think mental game precedes perfect execution. In your case Chael you re a great player but I think your ability to keep making the right decisions its what keeps you away from winning what your skill level worths 

Don't think anyone can play their A game all the time. Focus on your worst game (C, D or E) and try and push it up as much as you can. What makes you play bad? If it's getting bored then focus on that. What could you do to not get bored? Shorter session than 1000 hands? Focus on something specific each session? Don't play zoom? Maybe play 2 zoom tables and a few regular tables instead? Etc etc

All and all, I happen to think your graph is good, but my opinion will differ from yours since you think it's bad. I guess what I can tell you is to focus on your game and try not to compare it to other players. Mush does his thing and you do your thing. Take one session at a time and realize that this is all part of the journey. You will have ups and downs and some of the time the ups and downs aren't about money, it's about your emotions and how well you handle them. This game can put a lot of pressure on a player if he or she chooses to do it for a living. If that's what you choose to do, you really just gotta try to make the most out of each session you play and each hand your dealt. Compare poker to life: Each day your granted, you should try to make the most of out of it but if one day goes bad, it isn't the end of the world. Just gotta pick yourself back up and keep pressing on. I think that's what I like about poker the most. It teaches me in its own way to become more of a man and lets me know what I should work harder on.

You'll be fine man. Best of luck to you on and off of the felt. 

Every time I get in a big pair, someone's got a bigger one. But of course that doesn't show up.

Grinding for long hours requires a real passion for the game. Remind yourself of 'why' you play poker each morning when you wake up. The last 2-3 years have been passionless poker and my results suffered, only now is some of the passion returning and i'm having fun again

Great thread!

Watched this last night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo7vUdKTlhk (David Allen: "Getting Things Done".....it is worth a watch)

And I think it translates to your situation pretty well. IMO it sounds like you don't have fun because you feel you don't have control....and feel this way because you have lost perspective.

Sounds like you are in the bottom left quadrant when you want to be in the top right one. 

How did your sesison go today? i was sweating the 500NL for a bit and you seemed to win the hands i saw you play

Awesome effort on your last day of grinding. I'm in a bit of a downswing at the moment and also struggle in terms of volume. I love the game, I want to make it my career while I work on side ventures but it can be very mentally difficult at times.

Something that has helped me is really planning my life and financial goals over the next 12 months, 24 and 60. Then posting visual aids; eg a car, holiday around my place/grind station as reminders of what I am working towards. This has helped me a lot before.

Also the mental positive reinforcements, such as something posted on your bathroom mirror "today I am going to grind 8 hours playing my A game, crush some souls and work towards my goals"... so you see and read it everytime you go to the bathroom.

You seem really dedicated and quite skilled so I hope it works out for you.

I like your goals except "and 60k from sportsbetting". Did a fair amount of sportsbetting when I was younger but I'm fairly sure now that you won't have a positive EV in the long run unless you actively look for bookmakers who screw up their odds. Also 60k is a lot from sportsbetting. You will have to be betting fairly big to get there and in so your variance will be higher. What are your thoughts on this Chael?

Ya I can second that, I've lost countless thousands betting on every sport under the sun(mostly NFL), but I have a significant winning record in MMA too. Like sometimes it feels absurdly easy (last two times I went to watch a fight live in vegas we bet 5/5 main card fights and went 10-0.)

Managed to fight back. Sucks that my connection keeps messing up. Can't play...

Last three days.

You should put your yearly goals outside your weekly swings :P.  

16k upswing in the last three days, and I just made my goal, after pissing away like 25% of my roll in a couple of days. Poker is such a crazy game!

16k upswing? Wow chael, keep it up. It's sick that you have the ability to win that much in three days but you're questioning if you can continue grinding.....gl next month

Nice start to the month, with a 5k win. Already reached my monthly goal.
Started disciplined with 3x 200NL and 1x 500NL, but played 1kNL too because the games was awesome.

Main goal is to not mess up and do stupid things like in the first three months.

What videos have helped you most here Chael? 

Perhaps I can grind. Been playing better, though not very well, but the results have been excellent.
So far this month:

Same problem every single day: I spew and tilt off a ton in the morning, and have to win it back in the evening.
Looked in my tracker, and I've only have one winning session in the morning all month.
But I can't play super long in the evening.

But this is costing me so much. 5 buy in losses repeatedly because of massive spewing.

I think you need to change the language you use when you talk to yourself, your thread title says a lot. 

I know it's cheesy the old comment he who says he can't and says who can are both usually right yeah blabla cheesy as shits, but there is truth to it. Not in a way that lets start meditating and our mind is so powerfull lets just think it happens and it happens, more in a way that if you use this type of language you automatically fall into self sabotage, your excuse is always ready, you just can't, why can others and you can't.

Ofcourse you can, you just haven't figured out how best to do it yet. Also with the tilt, I am much like you allthough my skill level is lower and I play lower limits. What I noticed is that I am always going to care a lot about losing, i hate it point blank, that isn't going to change, I can talk to myself it is part of the game, I know that, still hate it.

So what is left for me is to manage my hate, I have to set stop-losses, I have to quit properly, I have to know when it's good to play lower, when it's good to play higher. Just be honest to yourself and your current mental state, and don't try to force anything. Sure you can challenge yourself sometimes, when you notice slight tilt and keep talking to yourself, built some resistance, but in general see yourself as your own personal manager, put yourself in the best position taking all things including your personality and emotions into account.

You are not somebody else, but there is nothing you can't do.

A fellow dutchman!

Another side note, what helps for me but is still so freaking hard to do, stop checking results, you feel so much better. Just completely quit doing it, untill you are completely detacched from doing it, you don't care anymore, then keep not checking them!

Poker is a lot about self controll something that isn't mentioned much. I've suffered with the same problems for years and god know's how much more I would have won during my career if I could just have better discipline and spew less. Good news for me is that it has got a lot better throughout the years. Can't say anything specific that's helped me but I know being more aware of when I'm not playing my B+ game has helped a lot. Also narrowing down on other aspects that effect your game (like playing in the morning for you). Eliminate those aspects so in your case don't play in the morning or play much shorter sessions or try to have another mindset in the morning etc. 

chael, do you play LAG ? maybe cut back your volume. 

i find that with zoom plo, the variance goes thru the roof when i go from 1-2 tables to 3-4. even the difference between 2 and 3 is massive.

when i 3 table i tilt and get steamed when fish get lucky and wind up either tilting off my winning (which steams me) or i follow your pattern of starting out losing and having to grind it back all day (doesn't steam me as much but i need to use active tilt control regularly every day)

when i 1-2 table, i can shrug it off 95% of the time. 

but i am playing PLO25z and 50z where you need to get a pretty massive winrate to beat the evil rake, so a LAG style where you dont multitable too hard and focus on getting every decision right and maximising your winrate is the way to go. i am running at a solid 20bb/100 at PLO25z over 15k hands this month, doing waaaay better than i ever did 4-table grinding.

not sure how relevant it is to the NL world. but worth considering.

I still can't figure it out.
Tilted off 75% of this month's profit today.

It doesn't matter if I improve my game, as long as I keep throwing everything away.
Folding to zero shoves, just because I want to see what they had. Fucking ridiculous.
Badly need a break, because poker's ruined my entire last two weeks already.

quite poker sounds like you have a problem 

bs, saying it has a negative impact on his life because he is whining a bit in this thread is stating something you frankly don't know anything about. 

I keep throwing everything away.
Folding to zero shoves, just because I want to see what they had. Fucking ridiculous.

I've always considered making those calls out of curiosity, but never did it (at least not at the highest stakes) for obvious reasons. Was it worth it for the info?

Now even for the month, from 13.8k up.
Probably going to take a break until monday, and then get my monthly goals.

Top set on turns and they get there with some random BDFD 3-betting vs UTG, every TT jam is snapped with AA, every bluff is called etc.

And of course my retarded tracker says I'm barely below EV, even though I coolered every single time.

200k+ hands is not bad for someone who can´t grind i think.

LOL. Just saw that danielmerrilees is calling me out and challenging me for a HU battle. I'm not 18 you know. So I'm really not interested in a cock fight vs you. I'm not really sure how me saying that you don't know anything about Chael and his feelings towards poker would bring that kind of emotions out towards me. I find it funny though. Always fun when people get their pulse going on forums. gl daniel and may the poker force be with you.

i enjoy zoom a lot more with 1-2 tables than with 3-4. i basically dont tilt at all, no matter how terribly i run. it will take longer to build the sample size but you might discover you are able to maintain the winrate you know you are capable of, and actually consistently enjoy yourself.

are you afraid the other 4tabling sickos will think less of you if you cut back ? :)

Hi, i dont play the same stakes as you, but i have the same problem from time to time. I think, you should really work on your mental game! Mental Game requires also skill as Poker itself. I've bought the Mental Game Book from Jared Tandler, and i am going to work it trough! And this takes time, i think a year or so.

Just because you don't tilt a weak or so, it doesn 't mean, that the problem is solved.

To admit Tilt, is like to admit Alcohol or drugaddiction :-D

I think you can afford yourself a Mentalcoach, because of the stakes you play! And i think the money is well worth it. 

Really think about it!!

Greets

Zoty

Yeah, you need to have your attitude right and mindset clear, in order to survive in that game. Being good at the game itself is not enough, you have to be good (great, even) at knowing yourself. You seem to be a very competent player, that's great, now what are you gonna do with your skills? Keep wasting them every time you spew?

I often consider poker a wicked form of martial arts. I know for sure that my main strengh as a pro is not my technical game, but the knowledge I have of my body and mind (including subconsciousness), and the (relative) mastery I've developped over the past years.

@Chael: if you want to talk about the mental game and tilt, feel free to send me a MP.

Sorry guys if this post is TLDR. I'm never gonna be much of a forum poster, and I'm not good enough at poker to comment much on hands played, but this mental game stuff is important to me in life and poker, so here's some words for Chael. If these words suck, sorry man for wasting yours or any one else's time. [I just read through the post, it takes about three minutes to read. Roughly as much time as an ad break.]

To be in the right place mentally in order to play poker to your best ability is a never ending process. Having a good understanding of where you are with your 'mental game' is key.  It's been said, one of the best ways to improve your win rate is to lop off your D and E game. But what's your D and E game? What's your A game? If I'm being honest i reckon I've played my A game 5% tops in all the time I've played poker. When i was able to play without emotion, or to be in control of my emotions, to think clearly and calmy and act with clarity, street to street, hand to hand, and accept the cards as they fall. Yea, maybe less than 5% if I'm being honest.

I think my B game involves my dealing with my emotions and winning the war, but i know i lose some energy and some focus on the hands, the games, when i have to keep my emotions in check. I'm not so sure about my C and D games but i know that my E game is full blown Tilt; Injustice Tilt; Entitlement Tilt...'I wanna go out in the street and strangle a dog Tilt but instead I'll just spew off ten buy ins in half an hour instead cos that 'feels' like the right thing to do Tilt.'

I bought the Mental Game of Poker a while back and thought I'd lopped off my E game, but i was wrong. Last time was about six weeks, ago. I didn't see it coming, I let it ruin my day. I don't play poker for a living. But i am serious about the game and my life (who isn't?)...and my poker tilt comes from the same place as my life tilt. I'm trying to make it as a writer (of plays) and what i learn from one i try to take to the other. My A game as a writer is pretty good, but my E game is awful, just emotional distress and anxiety and frustration and a little bit of Injustice Tilt. Nothing gets accomplished.

Poker and writing, they are grinds, but they can and should be fun. Poker is a game, games are fun, games are cool, kids play games, adults tend not to so much. To play a game, to profit from a game, that's cool. To make up stories and characters, put words in their mouths, that's cool too. But so often it isn't, it hasn't been...it's just frustration, anger and some self-loathing and a feeling of time not being well spent...and all we have is time, and less and less as we go.

So...you have to enjoy poker, you have to enjoy the struggle, you have to enjoy getting better at something. But...you have to do the right thing, you have to be good to yourself, treat yourself with some respect. So...you have to be mindful, as much as possible, be mindful, in the moment. This is where I'm at with writing and poker. When i play now I monitor my tilt constantly. I'm happy playng my B game, when i slip into my C game, when emotions start to cloud my mindful thinking in the moment, i am making more effort to take notice. It's an ongoing process.

Example: a ten minute sequence (we all have them). I get two bad beats then make a bad call for my stack, then I fire the turn and not the river and lose to King High; then I slow play when i should have fast played, then i get my bet sizing all wrong and find myself on the river realizing i fucked this hand up...even though i win the pot i lost a chunk of value and berate myself. And then i make another bad call and get one more bad beat and that's it. The B game went from C to D and i didn't even know it. TIME TO SIT OUT. Cos the E game is on the way.

So that's what i do. I click sit out next hand on my tables. That's the first step. Then I take a minute or two to breathe. In through the nose and out through the mouth. And i imagine the air going into my lungs is like air filling up a Greek or Roman Collumn (i was taught to use a visual at Drama School  - it works - when i use it.) Those minutes of controlled breathing are akin to meditation and they're the longest minutes of the day. Just focusing on the breath and the air going in and out and nothing else. As thoughts come into my/your head, treat them like cars or buses watch them go by but don't get in the car or wait for the bus, let them go by and keep breathing in (through the nose) and out (through the mouth). Relax your jaw. Massage your face. If you need more time, make tea, get some water, look outside or step outside for five minutes. Three Hundred Seconds - five minutes, it's not long. But it will save you money and as such it will save you time.

Then, if you can, go back to poker. Replay those bad hands in the replayer, think about what you actually did wrong. If it's a bad beat, you did nothing wrong...good. If you played bad, make notes, was it the turn, the river - or were you so tilted you botched the whole hand from the get go. Take your time...As much time as you need. The games will still be there, and you'll soon be back at the tables and able to play your B game at worst.

Next thing: be mindful of when you start to slip, from A to B to C to D to E, when the conscious mind moves from managing and coping with the constant split second problem solving and decision making process of playing a hand of poker to emotional thinking that is governed by feeling. That's another part of the brain right there and you 100% cannot play close to your B game when you're being governed by this part of your brain...it is, quite simply, impossible. Can't be done. You have to conquer that part of your brain, not by fighting emotion or feeling with feeling, but with mindful, logical, calm and conscious objective thinking and good breathing. Be good to yourself. Know yourself and know your games A to E.  Get better at noticing the drift from the comfort and semi serenity of your A and B games to the unpleasantness of the C game to the dogshit mire of your E game.

Enjoy the journey. I've spent too much time fretting over 'when will this be finished' and not letting myself enjoy the process of writing, the sheer fun of playing around with characters, the satisfaction of improving my technique, knowing i am a better writer now than i was five years ago cos of the work i put in. Anyone who has ground up a roll from the micros, to mid stakes, enjoy that shit, you're winning...it just might not feel like it 'right now' - but you are winning, you're better than you were...and you're not done yet...that's pretty fuckin cool.

Again: sorry for the TLDR.

obvious troll is obnoxious. obnoxious troll is obvious ? 

up !

I just wanted to say well done Chael, it is encouraging to see how you fight through some horrendous downswings and get back up! I think it shows that you do have the heart for this game, and I hope I can have your resilience when I hit the inevitable brutal downswings. Loving the game is, imo, one of, if not the most important factor to success in poker. If a player doesn't absolutely love the game, the first time they drop large sums of money would be the last because they would quit.  

I think learning what poker takes mentally is probably the hardest and most important lesson you will ever learn in your journey as a pro or even just as a recreational player.  Once you get a good grip on your psychological changes during your sessions and day to day your win rate should keep climbing.  Good luck and keep up the good work Chael.

How are you doing now?

Chael, what about sports betting?

Kinda wish this thread gets deleted, because it's pretty embarrassing.

Thread gives me hope when times are bad too :)

But since it is still here, how are things going? Have you been sucessful in addressing the issues above?

If so, how did you go about it?

Just found out this thread.  

GL man, it was really nice seeing you in Vegas.  Keep crushing!

Do not be embarrassed by this thread. First off its an internet forum so who cares.  You posted about your feelings at one particular stage of your poker career ...there is nothing to be ashamed about. Second off there is lots of good advice itt and its a good thread for others to learn.

I believe you should COMPLETELY change your view on poker.

All you seem to look at is money/results as you seem to only post about your swings (which really don't matter that much). In my eyes, poker is only about taking the best decision possible with the information you have. You even mentioned  previously that the winrate/results that you post aren't relevant of your game because you had so many coolers/bad spots. I then suggest you shouldn't ever post your results online anymore, (maybe at the end of the year to brag a bit ;) ) because posting/analyzing/thinking about them all the time affects a lot your short term mindset (if I interpreted correctly your posts). Now removing this attitude of constantly thinking about results and feeling bad/scared when losing a couple of days in a row is extremely tough. The first thing to do permanently would be not to look at results at all (maybe it's a bit extreme but basically the goal is to lower the more you can the importance of results by replacing it by another way more important thing in your eyes).

To take your attention away from results, you should be setting yourself daily and weekly goals that will be the most important things in your life when you sit at the tables and think about poker. This way, you won't be thinking anymore about results, but about the urge to improve your game, (that will indeed bring results, which we don't care about anymore haha) that will be something that you can control; contrarily to results. Now there's two choices (there certainly is more) that appear to me in order to create the habit of only focusing on your new goals: either you set yourself punishments for not having attained your goals in time (doesn't seem too appealing but can work for specific types of personalities) , either you set yourself some rewards for having attained your goals in time. Your rewards and punishments should be significant enough in order to motivate you doing the right things to attain your goals. Writing/signing a contract for the reward/punishment system with someone who would also have to do some goals in whatever aspect of their life they want could be a good method to make sure you don't cheat. 

I now realize this has turned out in a boring essay... sorry for that. Anyways this is something that I'm going to start of Monday (as I have some pretty similar issues on my side) and I don't expect my goals to fit my time schedule and/or my capacity at first, but I commit myself not to abandon because it doesn't feel natural/easy at start and I suggest you or anyone else do the same.

This could be complete bs, but I do think it helped me (at least it helped 1 person here) in my forever journey of having an impeccable mindset.

Chael, I just saw some comments on a video of yours where you were lucky enough to have PG watch your play at 100 NL (which must have been amazing)!

Was that your main game in Oct 2013? And you now play 500/1000 Zoom?

If so, then that's such amazing progress! Very, very impressive!

Are you able to discuss what the main things were which assisted this progress? Share any pearls of wisdom?

If you'd rather do this via PM, or not at all, I will respectfully appreciate your decision. :)

good job man .

bump
dogkilah life good too, he has his holes looked at