Should i buy PioSolver?
Posted by Demondoink
Posted by
Demondoink
posted in
Gen. Poker
Should i buy PioSolver?
hey all :) been meaning to get this for a couple months now and said i would when i play more 1/2 cos i feel as if more players use it than at .5/1. would have already but i have a Mac and not gonna download Windows on it again... that wasn't fun.
hopefully be able to buy a PC before WCOOP starts, anyways, was just wondering if PioSolver is the best GTO Solver option? i think i like the look of it the best and it was always my first choice when i bought one. also, what are the differences between the basic/pro/edge?
prob end up having to get edge cos id be tilted if i couldn't use some features lol.
thanks for any advice in advance :)
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I recommend it strongly. The difference between Pro and Basic is that Pro lets you install on two machines + has scripting possibilities (say, running automated calculations on a series of boards while you sleep soundly and collect the results while sipping morning coffee).
Any idea how much using only 1 bet size for all situations would cost in terms of ev against a gto opponent? For example if i was only allowed to bet 2/3 pot or check? Was wondering if someone could quickly calculate that with pio to see how far it could be simplified.
I have a SSD i7 processor with 24 gb of ram.....I can only add another 8 gb - will this make much difference in what I can run in Pio?
No, not really.
You only need a decent CPU and 6GB ram to run Pio well (it works OK with 4GB ram and an intel 2ghz dual core CPU).
The only thing that really scales are CPU speed. The other things are just minimum requirements.
ram will determine the size of the trees you can build and solve. when i bought pio i also bought as much more ram as my computer could take and it was worth it. you may be able to replace all of your ram sticks and get even more, check your computer's capacity.
your cpu will just affect how quickly it will solve the trees. if you get pro version you can easily script what you'd like to run and let it do the computations over night or over a weekend so in this regard cpu wouldn't make any difference at all.
Are you recommending him to get more than 32GB for Pio?
I didn't read very closely. 24 or 32 will be fine for almost everything.
pio solver just a weak before WCOOP honestly doesn't help.as a coach i recommend you to review Database.
thanks for the replies :)
PioSolver isn't for WCOOP it's more I've just not gotten round to buying it for past couple months and feel like now is a good time to buy a PC and then buy it obv.
im kind of a computer fish so the advice on PC's is very welcome lol, gonna try get one ordered tonight so it comes by Friday/ Saturday just in time.
would you guys recommend buying a gaming PC or just a normal one?
Hey guys,as about Piosolver requirements. Arent 16 GB,and 6700k i7 (4ghz) cpu,enough?
That computer is top of the line for Pio!
Is this a brag in disguise? xd
yeah id like to find out too, I'm about to leave to drive and go get one lol.
I am not thinking about buying it myself atm, but I reckon it is mostly useful for tournament players right? Also is piosolver edge worth the extra ~600 bucks?
Also I own CREV, what is the difference except for that pio is a lot more expensive?
whats CREV like? maybe i'll just buy that instead, would appreciate if someone who has used both would answer what differences between the two are.
There are some CREV vids here on RIO. You basically build trees with corresponding ranges and calculate your equity. It is made by the same guy who made flopzilla.
Pio is an equillibrium solver for Holdem. CREV is a simulator, which comes with a solver too nowadays. I have both but have never used CREV since bought Pio. People say that CREV's solver tool is very good tho.
If you want to run pre flop simulation, yes. And for what it's worth, I think that's a good idea. I just bought Edge and set it up on Amazon EC2 cloud to have flexible access to big computing power, but you should be able to do quite sophisticated calculations with a powerful desktop stuffed with RAM and some patience.
I have only played around with Edge for a day, but I can already now say that it will be very useful for anyone who makes an effort to learn the pre flop solver well.
To get the most use of it:
You will have to learn most of these things hands-on. The developers are too busy (understandably) to sit and crunch example outputs of hard problems for us to learn from, and the craft of modelling effectively and accurately is learned by experience. The pre flop solver hasn't been out long, so nobody knows all that much about how to use it in the most effective way.
Ask questions in the twoplustwo support thread when you get stuck.
Thanks mate
Pretty certain that the vast majority of Piosolver users are cash games players.
MTT regs have probably never even heard of a GTO solver.
You are mostly right. High Stakes MTT regs do study GTO too tho
got a completely new setup today (bar monitor that was only bought at Xmas.)
ended up getting a PC with 16BG of Ram and 3TB of data, that be fine for Pio? was the biggest in the shop, when I mentioned the recommended 32GB of Ram by earlier poster, the sales rep was shocked as he didn't think that size was needed to run any programme lol.
its SO GOOD to be on Windows again and just download anything you want, downloaded trial versions of Pio/ Table Ninja. was actually funny cos I didn't have the table to change beneath cursor to action, so clicked to min raise on other table and it called all in LOL.
so I PIO'd the hand and turns out its a good call :) haha.
here' the HH+ new set up. COME AT ME SCOOP!
PokerStars Zoom Hand #158039599701: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2016/09/02 0:12:03 WET [2016/09/01 19:12:03 ET]
Table 'Triangulum' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: visjeatwater ($86.13 in chips)
Seat 2: manfred zeal ($105.38 in chips)
Seat 3: Tomo0110 ($151.47 in chips)
Seat 4: Vict0r1992 ($167.38 in chips)
Seat 5: demondoink ($101.62 in chips)
Seat 6: danielkyosev ($189.30 in chips)
manfred zeal: posts small blind $0.50
Tomo0110: posts big blind $1
* HOLE CARDS
Dealt to demondoink [Qh Jh]
Vict0r1992: folds
demondoink: raises $1.50 to $2.50
danielkyosev: folds
visjeatwater: folds
manfred zeal: folds
Tomo0110: calls $1.50
FLOP [2d 7d 8h]
Tomo0110: checks
demondoink: bets $4.01
Tomo0110: calls $4.01
TURN [2d 7d 8h] [3h]
Tomo0110: checks
demondoink: bets $14.25
Tomo0110: calls $14.25
RIVER [2d 7d 8h 3h] [Jc]
Tomo0110: checks
demondoink: bets $30.73
Tomo0110: raises $99.98 to $130.71 and is all-in
demondoink: calls $50.13 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($49.85) returned to Tomo0110
SHOW DOWN
Tomo0110: shows [Tc 9c] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
demondoink: shows [Qh Jh] (a pair of Jacks)
Tomo0110 collected $201.24 from pot
SUMMARY *
Total pot $203.74 | Rake $2.50
Board [2d 7d 8h 3h Jc]
Seat 1: visjeatwater (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: manfred zeal (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Tomo0110 (big blind) showed [Tc 9c] and won ($201.24) with a straight, Seven to Jack
Seat 4: Vict0r1992 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: demondoink showed [Qh Jh] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 6: danielkyosev folded before Flop (didn't bet)
converters are your friend
Edit: WCOOP** not letting me edit comment.
also the speakers are crappy old £10 ones, had none of the ones I wanted in stock. the final piece...
So just based on some quick research it seems that the solver suggests very balanced lines giving great weight to BD draws and bluffs......has it significantly changed the way that you play? I've seen some vids where pros were really surprised at some of the results. I get that by studying it you can start to understand why it is doing what it is doing......but how much do you implement it in your day to day play?
The outputs are completely balanced strategies. But trying to mimic the software is a waste of time. You need to stick with the fundamentals and look for simplifications.
+1 to the above.
You can compute equilibriums for reference. Then you know what you can win at best against a perfect opponent. Next, make some simplified strategy that may or may not resemble what The Brain is doing. Then run it against The Brain and see how much it can exploit you for, compared to if you were to play the equilibrium strategy.
If you have built a simple, robust strategy that doesn't do much worse against The Brain than playing perfect GTO, then you have done a good job. And against real-life opponents you will probably do much better, since they won't be able to systematically exploit your deviations from GTO maximally.
Lol "The Brain"? U mean u can play hands against it?
I just like to have names for things. ;-) You can't play against it, but you can make strategies and see how you do against a perfect opponent (= an opponent who exploits you maximally).
Let's say you run a pre flop simulation to get the perfect ( = Nash equilibrium) solution for a scenario where you open your UTG range, everybody else fold, and The Brain can fold, call or 3B from the BB. At equilibrium, both of you are playing perfect against each other, and if you do something else, you will lose EV.
Now you want to know how to respond when that 3-bet comes. So you look at the equilibrium solution, but it's very complex (flatting various hands part of the time, 4-betting them the rest of the time and so on). So you decide to simplify by playing every 3B-defense hand in only one way (a hand is either folded, flatted, or 4-bet). You make some intelligent guesstimates/choices and come up with something close to the equilibrium solution, but much simpler (so that you can actually use it).
Now you can compare your EV vs your EV in the Nash equilibrium solution, and you see what your simplifications have cost you. If it's not a lot, you can use your simplified strategy in-game and be confident that you will not be making big mistakes against strong opponents.
Of course, you should often deviate from it to exploit opponents with leaks (say, add a few more 4B bluffs against someone who is 3-betting unbalanced wide and polar and folds way too much to 4B). Not deviating from your GTO'ish strategy to take advantage of very bad opponents is in fact one of the biggest mistakes you can make when you build your game around a (pseudo) GTO approach.
Wonderful answer Zenfish......thank u for taking the time to do this
K I bought Pio Solver basic as they will allow you to upgrade it in the future and I wanted to try it but I'm having trouble getting started.....is anyone starting out that has it that would like to commit to a skype group (2 or 3 max) to get started? Maybe meet every couple of days to start with? I feel as if I would do better if I was committed to some kind of schedule. Or alternatively if someone is competent and would offer very reasonable coaching rates to teach the basics please pm me
The software is very simple. Setting up the trees is easy, and you will only use two tools 90% of the time: node locker and range explorer. The latter explains itself. The former is a tool where you can change and lock the strategy (or only a few combos) of a given player in a decision point (node) and then let the solver iterate again to find the ajdusments against the locked strategy. Aggregation reports is also a very good tool for studying turns and rivers, but thats more advanced stuff. Play a lot of it and you will be fine
I don't own the program but:
http://www.runitonce.com/poker-training/videos/?gametypes=nlhe&prouser=all&prolevel=all&orderby=recent&videoformats=theory&playerformats=6-max
There are many vids about PIO Solver here on RIO.
Gl man.
done the same as Nitty and bought the Basic version a couple days ago (finally) and I have to say it is amazing! for anyone who hasn't used PIO before id have to recommend just buying basic because:
1- it is less than 1/4 of the price that edge is. don't get me wrong I think if you are say playing .50/1 or above it will easily make you more than $1,100 in EV by improving your game, but the $250 basic is a much more affordable choice for players playing as low as $25NL (for 10 buy ins seems good value.) personally don't think you really need to use a GTO solver until you get to 1/2 (can tell that most players are using them by over bet sizing's, trying to balance ranges etc.) however, OF COURSE it will benefit your game so if you don't mind spending $250 id recommend it to anyone playing cash full time or is looking to say convert to playing cash full time.
2- when you look at the differences between the 3 options-basic/pro/edge- they aren't exactly huge differences. it's not as if its like RIO where for $10 (or whatever the good value price it is) you get training vids from some guys playing low/ mid stakes vs $100 where you get training vids from some of the best in the world- Sauce, Phil, have to put Teunuss in here he's helped me improve a ton.
the post flop Solver is fully functional for $250 and providing you have a suitable computer, will help you improve a lot.
I think, as mentioned, the main differences is something to do with scripts (have no clue what that means anyways haha) so to anyone starting off with PIO I think there's no point buying edge or even pro. you can always upgrade later once you get more used to using the software.
so anyways, thanks for the answers in this thread, special shoutout to Zenfish for his in-depth answers. cya's at the tables!!
The difference is huge. If you really want to study holdem, scripting is awesome because you can tell the program to solve multiple textures at once, and them you can make an aggregation report to analyze the trends and patters across the textures. With basic you need to solve textures one by one which is time consuming and boring if you want to gather data from a lot of diferente textures. So for anyone willing to put the work to study, Pro Version >>> Basic Version.
wait, so with other versions I can plug in multiple hands at once and let it solve them at the same time? where as basic I can only do 1 at once?
of course those versions will be better but as a PIO noob, and of course most people starting off wont know how to use it, the basic version is more than good enough.
but yeah as you said if you know what you're doing with it then the other versions will be more beneficial :P
Not at the same time, but one right after the other. You input multiple flops, and the solver will solve all of them one by one. With basic you need to solve a texture, save it and then solve another. This is very useful when you go to sleep for example. You can just let pio running and by the morning you will have 25 textures solved to analyze.
The software is pretty simple. Knowing how to use it is not the hard part. Knowing why to use it and how to interpret its results is the key
okay cool, yeah didn't take long to get used to using it, watched one YouTube video and was good to go haha.
ah that makes sence, so I guess whoever reading this can just decide what version best suits their needs/ bankroll and just go from there. ill probably upgrade to Edge eventually but for now I'm more than happy with this version.
I am currently considering if I should get Piosolver basic. It would be a significant investment relative to my bankroll as I only play 10NL. There are a couple of specific questions that I have about the software. Is it crucial to have a strong subject knowledge of GTO play for you to actually interpret and understand PIO's conclusions? I would describe my own understanding of GTO to be rudimentary at best. Also, is it important to be extremely good at math to get any benefit from PIO? I barely did any math at all after HS and I just about know my way around equity calculation programs. I get the sense that PIO is significantly more complex than those. It doesn't seem like something you can jump into as a beginner and figure out easily, unlike most poker software that I've used before.
GTO is what poker players call a perfectly balanced strategy, which is the result of two players maximally exploiting each other until a point they can no longer improve their EV by unilaterally changing their strategy -> nash equillibrium. Thats all you need to know. Thats what pio will output to you (actually Pio gives a subset of the nash equillibrium strategies since at equillibrium any betsizing would be allowed and with pio you will usually choose 1-3 bet sizes).
Not extremely good. You just need to be able to do simple calculations. Its extremely important to be good at math as a poker player imo so if you lack the basic math knowledge, you should learn it. GTO poker is 100% math
Not really IMO. I find it most useful to help your understanding surrounding what to do with parts of your range on certain board textures in certain positions. It will give you tons of information but it can be difficult to understand what it means.
The important thing to understand when using PIO is to see what it suggests in specific scenarios and try to use intuition to understand why it suggests betting x with a subsection of your range and z with other parts of your range. For example, it will often suggest large sizings in spots where you should be polarised and splitting your range and other board textures it suggests betting a small high frequency sizing to respresent a merged and wide range.
PIO gives you the information, but it doesn't necessarily tell you why it comes up with the results it does. Lots of improvement to my game is done with PIO nowdays but at first I found it rather daunting and not extremely useful as I didn't know how to utilise the information it was giving me. Personally I'd recommend getting FlopZilla first, Pokersnowie second and then PIOsolver last. You should prioritise RIO videos the most if studying from a beginner level though IMO. Piosolver has the most depth yet it is also the most complicated so i advocate getting it later on.
Again this is my experience with it but hope I helped.
+1 to this. You can learn from simulations without being sharp in math. Just like you can drive a car without knowing the principles of a combustion engine.
In fact, solvers make strong strategies much more accessible exactly for those who don't have the math skills to manually guesstimate them (which was the way of the past, and where countless study hours would be spent by many). When you look at the output for a simulation, say, how often and with what you should c-bet a board, you will see that much of it is plain common sense. When you see something surprising, you can ponder why the solver is doing what it's doing, and you can learn from trying to understand the underlying principles at work.
Good simulations to learn from are boards where strategies are extreme (as in, using exclusively, or almost exclusively, one option). Extreme strategies are simple to understand and implement. Say you solve a 3-bet pot on a certain board and find that you are allowed to c-bet close to full range OOP on the flop (so you might as well bet everything), but on certain texture-shifting turn cards (it might be an ace that completes a flush draw) you should check your range. If you habitually go bet-bet on such total-reversal runouts you have just found a low hanging strategy fruit. Pick it, and try to improve your play in those spots.
Be playful with the program, that's a good way to learn. Just fire it up and do something, and interesting stuff will happen. The most productive study time occurs when you have:
1) Good ideas for producing something useful (a good 3-bet range BU vs CO, say)
2) Good questions that you want answers to (how do I play this type of flop --> turn texture shift?)
In my experience, stagnation creeps in when 1) and 2) are lacking. Playing around with hands in a solver can generate both. When you stumble over something useful and interesting, go with it and see where it takes you.
Study should not feel like a chore, it should be a fun activity, or you are doing it wrong. Using good software expertly is something like playing a quality musical instrument with ease. Well-written software helps you express and explore your ideas fast and elegantly without slowing you down or getting in your way. Pio is such a software.
Sorry to bump an almost 2 year old thread but people are often asking me about PIO solver videos and I figured I'd leave some suggestions in this thread given that there's lots of interesting information here already.
In this Responding to various cbet strategies video Sauce uses PIO to look at how we should counter different flop continuation betting strategies.
In this video Revisting hands with PIO Solver Tyler Forrester takes a look at a couple of hands in PIO and sees how his intuition matches up against PIO's recommendations in a couple of spots.
Here, Paul Atwal walks us through his study routine as well as what questions to ask with PIO simulations and how to find those answers.
Apotheosis uses PIO in this video How stack depth affects checkraise frequency to show us how stack sizes can drastically affect the way we want to play our ranges on flops. This should be especially helpful for MTT players.
Sam Grafton uses PIO in this video to look at OOP checking ranges with the preflop lead. This video should be helpful to both cash and MTT players when it comes to dealing with boards that don't favour us.
Finally, in this videoTyler Forrester uses PIO to explore 3 bet pots between the BB and CO discussing different c-bet classes, board textures, and preflop play.
As you have read in this thread there is a lot of strong knowledge within the RIO community. Don't be afraid to ask questions about PIO Solver no matter how basic or in-depth.
Great post! +1
I've been looking around at other training sites as I have the essential here but am looking to add something more foundation building. That said, I think you've convinced me to just save the money for a few months and buy PIO basic for $250.00. I already have GTO+, CardrunnersEV3, and Flopzilla but sticking around with one site like RIO here and using the same software you do might be the most lucrative decision I could make. I don't know if Upswing Poker or RedChipPoker can compete with RIO + PIO, as the other two sites aren't really GTO based and don't use PIO (or any solver) at all.
New vid from Elías Gutierrez titled Analyzing Spots with PioSolver: Inspired by a Hand vs Isildur1 over at the Elite videos section.
very good video, i'd recommend skipping the first 15 mins though.
Can we confidently say that PIO solver is just as much for tournament players as cash these days? Further, if we're playing low/ mid stakes 10-30 dollar buy ins, do we really need to learn optimal strategies through PIO when most of our money comes from fish who we're exploiting anyway (not so worried about balancing or getting exploited by sharks).
no, for sure some tournament players are using PIO, but they are not really doing so efficiently for the most part, and they still just auto c bet most boards vs the bb so they don't even attempt to incorporate PIO's strategies. they will throw in random hands but cash games players will be using solvers pretty much every single day and altering their strategies based on it's outputs. however, vs the bb again, cash game players are still c betting far too often and many don't seem to know what sizes/frequencies to be using on various board textures so just block at extremely high frequencies because the bet doesn't need to work very often to be +EV and this strategy is extremely easy to execute.
as for your question about needing PIO at $10-$30 buy ins, I hate that excuse for not bothering to study optimal strategies, it is just extremely lazy to say we don't need to study proper poker because we are just playing vs fish. how exactly are you going to progress as a poker player if you have a strategy of value betting vs fish and then having no clue how to play almost any board texture/situation against a somewhat competent opponent? sure, exploit when is necessary, it doesn't make much sense to bluff a guy who is calling down with fourth pair, but work on building solid foundations and then deviate when necessary. this will quicken the pace at which you move through the limits, and will increase your win rate as you are now better than most of the regs you are playing against.
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