Professional Poker Player or Winning Compulsive Gambler?
Posted by modernbuddha
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modernbuddha
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Gen. Poker
Professional Poker Player or Winning Compulsive Gambler?
Yesterday, I went to my first Gambler’s Anonymous meeting in my area and something quite remarkable and enlightening struck me. After a short car ride, but long adventure searching for the Gambler’s Anonymous room in the addictive substance wing at my local hospital, my friend and I were warmly greeted by a welcoming group of gambling addicts. We took two available seats and were handed two small yellow books filled with aphorisms and commandments a recovering gambler must obey to overcome their addiction. During the first half and hour, we all took turns reading passages from the book and vowing to follow the steps to recovery. The second half of the meeting consisted of sharing our personal stories and our encounter with compulsive gambling how it affected our lives today. As each person volunteered sharing a brief anecdote of their gambling career, I noticed one similarity between them all – they were all losers, stuck and in the red, through playing games of chance such as slots and various table games. As a poker player, I could not identify with them. Poker is a game of skill and the luck element is eradicated through playing more and more. Also, being part of a poker forum and constantly discussing strategy and skill, I justified to myself that poker was completely different and that in the long run it is skill and strategy that decides the winners from the losers.
But, is poker really any different from other forms of gambling? I’m a winning cash game player at the low stakes online and live arenas over a statistically significant sample; however, began to question whether or not my time was being used most effectively to deliver the greatest overall happiness in my life and for my family in the future. I think the major obstacle poker players face is the fact that they can justify their gambling in the name of statistics and chasing long-term expected values and thus, will be winners in the long run. Hell, winning poker players have the best excuse ever with beautiful graphs that go straight up over statistically significant samples. Is this crazy delusion? I argue that winning can delude you even more from the truth because quitting can be so hard when you’re a proven winner. After I told my story that I had played poker since high school and through college, a fellow GA member raised an extremely interesting argument that struck me really hard. I told the group that through poker I had made enough money to support myself in high school and through college; however, as I began to enter a new chapter in my life and graduate to work a real job, began to question that future sustainability of poker. That fellow GA said that although you may be a winner at poker and capable to beat the game and make a decent income -- the human existence, ultimately was not created to wake every morning and enter a live or online card room. We are born to exemplify love, compassion, loyalty, responsibility, care, and the like towards our loved ones and ourselves. We are born to work toward ambitious goals and to create value that will benefit not only ourselves, but also our friends, family and the rest of society. It is not to gamble. It does not matter whether if you’re a winner or loser. Losers may hurt more and lose everything they own, but I argue that even if you’re a winner at the game – you’re still losing out on life. Despite winning money, a winner still exemplifies many of the undesirable characteristics of a compulsive gambler. Please see the GA’s 20 questions compulsive gambler questionnaire below. By definition, if you answer yes to more than 7 of the 20, you’re a compulsive gambler.
20 Questions
1. Did you ever lose time from work or school due to gambling? Yes
2. Has gambling ever made your home life unhappy? Yes
3. Did gambling affect your reputation? Yes
4. Have you ever felt remorse after gambling? Yes
5. Did you ever gamble to get money with which to pay debts or otherwise solve financial difficulties? Yes
6. Did gambling cause a decrease in your ambition or efficiency? Yes
7. After losing did you feel you must return as soon as possible and win back your losses? Yes
8. After a win did you have a strong urge to return and win more? Yes
9. Did you often gamble until your last dollar was gone? No
10. Did you ever borrow to finance your gambling? Yes
11. Have you ever sold anything to finance gambling? Yes
12. Were you reluctant to use "gambling money" for normal expenditures? Yes
13. Did gambling make you careless of the welfare of yourself or your family? Yes
14. Did you ever gamble longer than you had planned? Yes
15. Have you ever gambled to escape worry, trouble, boredom or loneliness? Yes
16. Have you ever committed, or considered committing, an illegal act to finance gambling? No
17. Did gambling cause you to have difficulty in sleeping? Yes
18. Do arguments, disappointments or frustrations create within you an urge to gamble? Yes
19. Did you ever have an urge to celebrate any good fortune by a few hours of gambling? Yes
20. Have you ever considered self-destruction or suicide as a result of your gambling? No
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Like you said, poker is a skillgame, with an element of luck.
So I don't think answering questions about gambling makes much sense.
Also, these are questions are written in a way where you can reasonably answer yes on every single one of them, even if you only play bingo.
Of course most people get as rush from winning, being in big pots etc., but excitement does not equal addiction.
I don't think it's a bad thing if you do the rush of risking money, and partially leaving it up to luck.
I bet 95% of the nosebleed players would answer yes to more than 7 of the questions listed. As long as playing poker doesn't get in the way of the rest of your life, there's no problem, imo.
I for one hate all ins etc. I often even mimimize my table, so I don't have to sweat it. Not a fan of gambling at all, and I've never spent a penny on anything but poker and sports betting.
You are making me paranoid with this thread, though. :)
Answering questions about gambling might not make sense, however, don't you find it more than coincidental that even while playing a skill game, we find so many questions we answer yes to? Try to think of the questions not of a measure of a "compulsive gambler", but rather simply questions to identify unfavorable behaviors. By answering "yes" we exhibit those behaviors, hence may not be the best for us.
Bingo is a gambling game too! :)
Sure, if poker does not get into the way of the rest of your life, by all means you can play. I'm trying to bring awareness to the poker community to be mindful, honest, and completely open of what is out there.
I have never played any other game except poker as well. I've also never lost at any stake I've played at. However, even despite winning, poker may take away from other opportunities the world has to offer...
I'm glad I aroused some paranoid. I think it's healthy that we always keep re-evaluating our motivations and ultimately, ourselves to make sure we're doing what makes us happy.
Bingo is a game of luck only.
And I already evaluate about 10 times a minute, so even more evaluation could kill me.
^+1 to paranoia...
Reading your post reminded me of someone who just "found Jesus," and is trying to convince yourself that "he" exists. If you want to quit playing poker, do it. Don't try to convert everyone else to your beliefs.
I'm not trying to convert everybody else to my beliefs. You can do whatever you please with your own life. I'm simply trying to throw an opinion and point of view for the poker community.
I also think my opinion is quite unique coming from a winning player. I'm trying to highlight the other things you might've been giving up by playing. Although you may win money, perhaps consider the opportunity costs to playing?
Anyways, just my two cents. Again, this article, by any means is not a hope to "convert" everybody or "preach" Jesus -- it is only to bring awareness of what could be going on.
You can be addicted to anything, just because you are a winning poker player doesnt mean poker is good for you or has a positive effect on your life or that you arent addicted to it. But it doesnt mean its any different than anything else just because there is gambling involved. If you treat it like an obsession making money at it doesnt suddenly make it healthy.
Also, 95% of people dont get any spiritual fulfillment from their job, so sitting behind a monitor playing cards or sitting in a casino 8 hours a day isnt any different from the thousands of other meaningless jobs out there. So again, if you make poker your life, then yeah you are going to be unfulfilled and unhappy, same as if you make being an accountant your life.
Happiness in is about balance. Balance your work obligations with your family obligations, with your passions, with your responsibilities. Just because gambling is a dark hole that some people fall into that doesnt allow them to achieve that balance, doesnt mean that gambling itself is bad, or that people who gamble for a living suffer from the same compulsion.
If something about the gamble in poker causes you to fixate too much on it and its ruining other areas of your life or making you unhappy, then by all means stop, and judging by the answers to your GA questions this seems to be the case. And theres absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think its great you are taking steps to find that balance in your life. But assuming that because you are unable to find that balance while playing poker even as a winner, does not mean that others cant.
I find this quite ironic because I'm an accountant. :D
Great post, ItsToothPasteISwear. I completely agree with you. I think it's quite interesting that even as a winner, it can still be bad if you are obsessive with winning more. Most people think money is everything, but clearly there is way more to life.
When I began playing poker, my parents, family and friends were all very worried to see me put so much time into learning NLHE, and the first thing they always said was "You're going to lose everything, poker's not healthy, and nobody can make money playing poker". In the beginning, I tried to explain to them how variance worked and how poker is a game of skill and not luck, and although my very best friends did understand most of what I was trying to explain, most people I talked to would still think I was crazy and that it was going to ruin my life.
Because of that, I've simply stopped talking about poker to the ones I know are not interested in the slightest, and if they ask me how "my poker" is going, I tell them everything's good, no matter if I'm winning or losing at the moment. Although some would say the fact that I'm losing money (short term) is terrible, I'm still learning a lot, having fun playing and enjoying myself, which in my eyes means that "my poker", as they say it, is going good.
Of course, being repeated that you're going to lose everything by playing poker is scary, and it made me uncertain a number of times. To counter that, I decided that whenever poker affected my life negatively (or even felt the urge, or felt it taking too much of my time), I would take a gambler's anonymous test to see if I was exhibiting addictive tendencies(answering the questions as honestly as possible, even though I don't think poker is gambling, or even agree with all the questions), and if the answer was yes (or I felt it was yes), I would take a break from poker, of a minimum of 1 month. I usually don't play much poker during the summer, simply because my full time job is very demanding, and that I like to spend a lot of time with my friends, but apart from the summers, in three years of playing poker, I've only taken 3 breaks from the game, one of them being a 5 month break started in October 2013, because I spewed off a large tournament win in 2 days. It will end in March of 2014, when I will be 18, hence the long wait period (Waiting for the age of majority so I can withdraw my ~5k in winnings and start fresh.).
Every time I stopped playing, I didn't feel the urge to return to the tables. Of course, sometimes I would've liked to play poker, as well as participate in my friends' home game sit'n gos, but I never felt like I needed to play poker to function properly. So after the set amount of time, I would return to the game like nothing happened.
To conclude this very long post, the development of addictive tendencies while playing poker depends on personal factors, and is different for everybody. It's always good to be aware of your own, as I tested mine by taking breaks, but you can't tell somebody that their way of life (pro poker players) is wrong based on what you've experienced, because everybody has different needs (need to contribute to society, to be successful, to raise a family, etc) and goals for their life.
Thanks for reading my short novel,
-NoHubris
Thank you so much for taking the time to post your story, NoHubris! I had a great time reading it.
I just to say that even once you've mastered the game and become a winning playing making heaps of cash -- it may not be as fulfilling as you might think. By playing so much and investing so much time in a live or virtual casino, there is an opportunity cost to playing and studying the game. For example, you may miss being with your family and friends, working on a business idea, spending time with a girlfriend, walking your dog or simply just relaxing and enjoying a beautiful day. Furthermore, you'll justify poker by thinking yourself that you're making money, working hard, or I'll enjoy all of this later -- but you don't realize, your life is speeding you by.
Just something to think about and be aware of; I'm not trying to tell you to quit or anything. I think it's great that you're working really hard on your game.
I get what you mean. Recently Negreanu mentioned that his life wasn't about poker any more, and that it wasn't his priority like it was a few years ago. He now focuses on fitness, family and friends, more than on the game itself. An example of that would be when he decided not to go to the NBC HU invitational to go see one of his friends that needed help (I think that was last year).
Although Negeanu isn't as preoccupied about poker as he once was, that doesn't mean he's less successful: Just look at his 2013 year, conquering the WSOP POY award for the second time, which no one has done but him.
As a young kid, maybe I don't see how time consuming poker can really be, since I still feel like I've got all my life ahead of me, but this post has made me think a lot. It's all about balance!
Completely agree, it's all about balance.
But, realize where Negreanu is coming from. He is already successful and rich enough such that he doesn't have to work anymore and would still live a comfortable life. Imagine if luck wasn't on his side during his first few tournament wins and he wasn't able to build a large bankroll to play in the games he plays today or secure his Pokerstars sponsorship. Life might be completely different for him today.
Like I posted in a thread a few days ago: Gambling is only a problem if you lose. ;-)
Sounds like a crude and Darwin-y mindset, because it is. But can you make it (as in, playing for a living) any other way?
Speaking from experience (and I'm not a particularly risk-seeking beast), there have been many times in my poker career where any rationally thinking "civilian" observer would have labelled me as a compulsive gambler.
True, it will be a big problem if you are a loser. However, I was trying to highlight that even as a winner, there are intangibles that also measure the quality of life and happiness. If you play poker the wrong way, even as a winner, you may not be as happy as you think.
I guess I may be somewhat biased because I will be graduating from a top-tier university in the US and have a well paying job lined up. I have used poker as a means to support myself through high school and college though.
Me too! I'm not going to deny it. When I'm sitting with a fish, I find it extremely hard to get off my seat.
Almost anyone whose great at anything could be viewed as addicted to their "craft." To be good at something you have to make sacrifices in other areas of your life. FWIW I answered yes to almost every question on the list :)
Yes and I completely agree. You must put hard work and dedication into something if you ever want to be good. But, do you think those qualities that the 20 questions highlight are positive to your happiness and well-being?
I also answered yes to almost every question!
I sometimes dislike the fact that enough is never enough when it comes to poker. It's tough when the food I was looking forward to arrives, and I don't even want to eat anymore because a bunch of insanely good games started.
More towards your question, I think the qualities highlighted by the questions are not positive. The compulsive drive to play and play is like an untamed primal instinct. Approaching poker without a business-like attitude (and structure) will likely drive anyone insane. I struggle with this, but I'm getting better.
I completely agree with you. That's why I wrote this article and want to highlight the fact that we may be sacrificing our well-being too often for a good game.
For me, it's extremely hard to get up and stop playing when there's a massive fish sitting with me. Everything else in my life stops just so I can scoop up the guy's money.
i said yes to 5/20 - maybe this is why i suck at putting in enough volume
Those questions are poorly suited to poker, ask them to a competitive individual of any discipline and substitute the word 'gambling' with whatever is appropriate, and I'm sure you'd get 7 yes:es too.
Like this one:
7. After losing did you feel you must return as soon as possible and win back your losses?
Hell yes, I fucking despise losing. It's the exact same with competitive gaming or MMA for me... if I have a series of bad sparring sessions there is nothing I want more than to get back in the gym and go again.
Or this:
2. Has gambling ever made your home life unhappy?
Of course it has, just as my previous competitive pursuit caused me much unhappiness when I did poorly. Losing after you put in a lot of hard work to win is very aggravating.
5. Did you ever gamble to get money with which to pay debts or otherwise solve financial difficulties?
This question is not applicable to a professional poker player, it's like asking 'did you ever work to get money to pay rent?'.
I think I can answer yes to 7 of these questions (definitely 6), and I'm for sure the least gamble:y person you'll ever meet... I find myself far more annoyed when I lose than I enjoy the rush of winning, I have 0 interest (and have never partaken in) any casino games, and I would describe myself as fairly risk averse. The only non-poker gambling activity I even find interesting is sports betting, and that's only because the idea of people beating it (and the methods they use, models and what not) is intriguing.
Are we the same person?
Hehe, I imagine there's going to be a surprising amount of people in the poker community that fits this profile :D
TianYuan
Those questions are poorly suited to poker, ask them to a competitive individual of any discipline and substitute the word 'gambling' with whatever is appropriate, and I'm sure you'd get 7 yes:es too.
Agreed, and more generally, I think they are poorly suited to evaluate activities that require passion. Being passionate isn't bad, but these dry and bloodless rules can certainly make it appear bad.
The trick, of course, is to make room in your life for other things than what you are most passionate about. But rather a life with strong passions than eternal dullness.
Why did you post about attending gamblers anonymous on a poker website?
Please don't try to lure me and the others trying to improve their game, into your little cult because your being brainwashed.
If your not happy about making a living playing poker, then you have some personal issues. If you want to hump a desk all day long or bust your ass in some labor job, be my guest.
No one knows what the point of human existence is. That's why we gravitate towards things like religion and cults like AA, GA, NA etc.
Don't tell me that I am "losing out in life" because I choose to make money from poker.
My life is awesome and poker is a big reason why.
I think you should learn how to understand and tolerate opinions. Nobody is trying to lure you into any cult. Nobody is telling you what the meaning of life is, that's for you to find out on your own. In the meanwhile though, try not to be so condescending and arrogant towards people who mean you no harm.
To Trondeez:
This feels like a classic case of fear of the unknown.
This post wasn't made to dissuade anybody from playing poker, but rather to share a point of view that is not common in the poker community, which I find very interesting. You only get better at poker by questioning every decision, and the same thing goes for life. Rational, logical, and respectful debates make everybody smarter, but for that to happen open-mindedness is in order.
Completely know where you're coming from trondeez. If you're loving every moment of playing and it's been making your life great and you're happy, I'm extremely happy for you.
This article was written only to open a new point of view for the poker community.
go tell it to the money marketeers and financial traders and stock market manipulators. what value is goldman sachs adding to our society ? poker players are a very small part of the problem.
I'm actually an Economics major and took quite a few classes in Corporate Finance and the like. Probably a discussion for a different thread, but I see your point... I'm addressing this article to and individual's self happiness, not poker players as a whole.
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