Pro Poker Tools Question

Posted by

Posted by posted in Gen. Poker

Pro Poker Tools Question

No matter how many times I read the description of 

Hand vs Range graphing compared to Hand vs Hand description I never understand the difference. If somebody understands this please explain to me.

Here is the material they provide for description

Graph ButtonsHvR (Hand vs. Range) Graphs

The hand vs. range graph button allows you to view a graphical representation of the possibile equities of a hand on the next round of betting when the other hands are unknown (that is, the other hands are still ranges). For instance, here is the graph of a pair of sixes vs. a hand in the top 15%:

Hold'em Hand vs. Range Equity Graph559 flops dealt 
Minimum Equity for 66 (vs. [15%]) 

The HvR graph shows as that the sixes have very high minimum equity on about 12% of flops - this is when the sixes flop a set. Moving over, we see they have at least 50% equity about 30% of the time.

HvH (Hand vs. Hand) Graphs

The hand vs hand graph button allows you to view a graphical representation of the possible equities of a hand on the next round of betting when all hands are turned face up. Let's take a look at the same example we used for HvR - a pair of sixes vs. a hand in the top 15%:

Hold'em Hand vs. Hand Equity Graph10000 flops dealt 
Minimum Equity for 66 (vs. [15%]) 

The HvH graph shows us that the sixes have over 75% equity on about 20% of flops hand vs. hand. These represent the times that they flop a set or a monster draw. Moving a little further to the right on the graph, we see that the sixes have more than 50% equity on about half of all flops. Finally, looking at the far right hand of the graph, we can see the sixes can't do better than about 15% equity on about 40% of flops. This reflects those times that the sixes are beaten by a bigger set or pair.

10 Comments

Loading 10 Comments...

Tom Coldwell 11 years, 9 months ago

I'll do my best here, but this might not be the most eloquent explanation ever:

HvH: If you run a sim in HvH, what is does is take your hand versus any hand from the range you've given your opponent. Lets say that you are looking at JT97ss versus AA**, in HvH, it will do thousands of sims where it takes your JT97 and deals a flop against random AA hands. So this means that the sim may include stuff like JT97 versus AAQQ on 77Q. Equally, you could have it on JT4 versus AA28. What this means is that you'll be given a wide variety of equities, all of which assume perfect knowledge of your opponent's hand. Therefore, if you were to run a sim assuming you call a preflop raise to play flops, you would find yourself making crazy hero-folds (such as trips on the 77Q board) which in reality you'd never make. Equally, you'll find yourself getting it in better on other boards than you would in reality against a range (as with the JT board on which villain never has a gutter).

HvR: This runs far fewer boards, but it does so against the entire range you have given your opponent. Therefore, you equities will be more central (ie it's harder to flop the lowest or highest ends of the spectrum), but will be a more realistic picture of postflop play given the information that will be available to you. The distinction may seem small, but with regards to doing valuable analytical work, using the HvR function will serve you better.

Hope that made sense.

Zachary Freeman 11 years, 9 months ago

What do you mean that HvR runs far fewer boards? It still has to run all possible flops, correct? Or even if we plug in the flop and graph turns I'm sure both HvH and  HvR would graph all turns ( approx 47 ). 

I'm still confused. 

Tom Coldwell 11 years, 9 months ago
Yeah, if you graph turns, it will do the whole lot. But there are obviously many thousands of flops so it becomes a lot more difficult for it because on each flop it has to take your equity against a range which requires it to run you against every AA** hand on each flop which is a ton of calculations. In general, it will do around 200 different boards when you run HvR and give you your equity on each against the range assigned whereas in HvH sims, it will run a ton of boards, but each one against a single random hand from within the range you've assigned villain.


Zachary Freeman 11 years, 9 months ago

You could be right but that makes little if any sense. Firstly, it doesn't tell you what single random hand it's using so the results would be useless.

Secondly, if what you said is true then why would you ever want to look at HvH graph especially for given turns? 

I do appreciate you trying to help, because i'm still clueless about the differences.


Zachary Freeman 11 years, 9 months ago

I went to go look at it and I do see that less turns or flops are ran for hand v range. Perhaps you cold give an example of when I would use HvH instead of HvR? 

Tom Coldwell 11 years, 9 months ago

I've never used the HvH for anything (that I can remember at this moment), but I imagine it's mainly designed for exactly what it says, hand versus hand simulations. If, for whatever reason, you were able to give villain a specific hand, this would be the purpose of this sim (I would think). Probably more useful in NL than PLO given the greater variety of hands in Omaha, but who knows. Honestly, I find HvR to be substantially more valuable for what I'm doing, but then that doesn't mean there won't be guys gaining a lot from using the HvH function.

Zachary Freeman 11 years, 9 months ago

K thanks for your help. I'll just stick to hvr. The one thing I find really odd is that in their example they use HvH of a small pair vs a 15% range. That's the part that seems odd/useless/incorrect application.

wownhlol 11 years, 4 months ago

What do you mean that HvR runs far fewer boards? It still has to run all possible flops, correct? Or even if we plug in the flop and graph turns I'm sure both HvH and  HvR would graph all turns ( approx 47 ).


You are talking about an exhaustive method (run out all possible boards) and that is not what ppt does (not sure why it doesn't?) Afaik what ppt does is takes your hand vs a random hand in their range and runs it on a bunch of randomly selected flops.


(i know why its not used preflop, but when flop is known I believe exhaustive method is optimal)


ZenFish 11 years, 4 months ago

It samples flops randomly, and the results converges towards the exact result. You can choose the criteria for randomized sims under "Preferences". I think the defaults are 1000,000 trials OR 10 seconds, and the sim stops when the first criterion is met.

When I do high-precision work I set the time criterion to 120 seconds. The numbers seem to be pretty tightly converged after that, although I haven't tested standard deviations and such.


Be the first to add a comment

Runitonce.com uses cookies to give you the best experience. Learn more about our Cookie Policy