I think it is a wonderful game and plan to play at least as long as Doyle to keep my mind sharp and just for enjoyment and hopefully income but anytime someone finds out that I play poker they want to tell me about friends or relatives that lost their houses or got into some big problems with shady people gambling. Of course they don't differentiate between roulette, casino games or sports gambling and just lump everything in together. They don't seem to understand the concept of controlling it through bankroll management and learning about strategy. Everyone seems to know someone who lost a lot of money playing something. Starting to really annoy me. Of course it doesn't help that so much poker news is sad and involves murder and/or thievery. Or that most people that have tried on line poker pump in $400-500 lost it all and quit. Poker needs some good press!
This won't change any time soon. Old people still think if they buy something online there is a 99% chance they wont get it or someone will steal their credit card info.
Trying to convince other people of something you beleive to be true is the biggest waste of time ever.
This frustrates me to no end too, So_Nitty - I still have family members that after they find out I won some money last month (or whatever) say things like "Yeah, but how much did you lose?" Now I am lucky, in that most of my immediate family at least trusts me enough(even though they don't understand it) to just let me be. I have found the best solution is to just not bring it up in conversation and if someone asks (I don't lie) I just say I play poker and I am doing fine while doing my best to change the subject. It is a losing battle to explain, to a non-poker playing friend or family member, what bankroll management is and how it protects you (if done right) from "losing your house", and explaining variance is like trying to speak to someone in a language they have never heard before - they will not understand anything that you try to tell them. Hell, I have issues w/ my casual poker playing friends and them not really getting what I am doing or what I am trying to accomplish.
edit: I also wish to "Doyle Brunson" it and play for as long as I can. Maybe not always full time but I honestly can't imagine not at least occasionally playing poker.
I think over time you'll be able to gauge who will find your interest in poker intriguing and who will be judgmental of it. If you are spending time with someone who will react negatively to your participation then just don't talk about the game or tell them that you play.
I often choose not to tell people that are not close to me about poker, simply because I've grown tired of the conversations that occur afterwards (both negative and positive). The odd aspect of the job somehow seems to free people up to ask you very personal questions that I often find awkward. People often like to project their own insecurities on to me and I have to navigate a difficult response whereby I can defend myself and/or the game without insulting them. These things are rarely a problem with my close friends and family (which makes me very lucky) but I find it happens quite frequently when I first meet new people.
For multiple reasons I avoid telling people at live poker tables that I play for a living. I coach baseball as well so I tend to just tell them that so I don't have to deal with the frustrations of being identified as a pro in a live game.
Tell people you make money playing poker can only lead to two things. They know you have money so this makes you a target for bad things to happen. They know someone hurt by gambling and it brings up bad feelings.
Or they say stupid shit that tilts you. It's not their fault, they just don't know better and it's hard to argue because they have such strong negative experiences with gambling.
The way I think about it is this, for every graph I have where its going up, somebody else has a graph that is going down at a steeper rate because of rake. I'm not sure how many days, weeks or months I've ruined for losing players.
Poker is predatory in nature, it's a survival of the fittest game. Every time you play poker it's a fight for the death, whether you realize it or not. Because in most societies, money is time and when you run out of time you die. Players that consistently lose can't break out of the slavery of gambling, the indentured servitude of their job that supports their gambling habit.
If you want to play poker, you are going to enter the gladiator ring. So even if you are not a killer, you better become one.
It's a reasonable prejudice given that 1. Poker is a negative sum game due to the rake and 2. The number of losers greatly outnumber winners over time.
The chances that a poker player, including those with positive results, but without a statistically significant number of hands (probably several million) is a losing player are really high.
Only a tiny % of players are long-term winners, how could poker have a good reputation?
I actually don't care anymore about what people think. Obviously they'll think some things, they're humans, they walk around with brains, and always want to share their thoughts and opinions, as if those were special. I've decided not to let other people's ideas influence me, as much as possible obviously. People will keep thinking and expressing random ideas, there's no way I'll let my well-being depend on this randomness.
For those of you that are interested here is a link to a poker variance calculator - you can play around with it and see what the liklihood of being a winning/losing player is. My favorite way to use it is to enter my hand sample, my actual standard deviation and my winrate (enter your winrate into the observed winrate box) and then enter various other winrates into the 1st winrate box. It will then spit out a bunch of interesting numbers and stats. While it is true that the more hands you have the more confidence you can have that you are truly a winner you can be relatively certain if your winrate is high enough after just several hundred thousand hands.
If this prejudice is coming from your beloved one or someone you care about, make sure you take some time to explain how poker works, what it really takes to make money in this game, and what money means to you. It might take a while for those ideas to get instilled into their mind. But hey, we are all biased in one sense or another, and as a consequence, people don't change easily. Especially when it comes to things that they keep hearing about but don't really know much about. Politics is a perfect example. If you were a Republican, could I convert you into a Democrat overnight? Or the other way around? Or better yet, if you were indifferent to politics, could I make you get involved in some hardcore campaigns starting from next week? :)
If this prejudice is coming from other people, make sure you pay minimal attention to it and move on. It's not always easy, but def. more +EV than trying to persuade them. Chances are, these people will be sitting at your poker table, thinking "why not give poker a shot?", at some point in your poker career. Better not tap the fishbowl.
And yeah, when in doubt, just tell them you are self-employed.
So_Nitty
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This won't change any time soon. Old people still think if they buy something online there is a 99% chance they wont get it or someone will steal their credit card info.
Trying to convince other people of something you beleive to be true is the biggest waste of time ever.
“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
This frustrates me to no end too, So_Nitty - I still have family members that after they find out I won some money last month (or whatever) say things like "Yeah, but how much did you lose?" Now I am lucky, in that most of my immediate family at least trusts me enough(even though they don't understand it) to just let me be. I have found the best solution is to just not bring it up in conversation and if someone asks (I don't lie) I just say I play poker and I am doing fine while doing my best to change the subject. It is a losing battle to explain, to a non-poker playing friend or family member, what bankroll management is and how it protects you (if done right) from "losing your house", and explaining variance is like trying to speak to someone in a language they have never heard before - they will not understand anything that you try to tell them. Hell, I have issues w/ my casual poker playing friends and them not really getting what I am doing or what I am trying to accomplish.
edit: I also wish to "Doyle Brunson" it and play for as long as I can. Maybe not always full time but I honestly can't imagine not at least occasionally playing poker.
I tutored Statistics in college. Explaining variance is harder than trying to speak to someone in a language they have never heard before.
I think over time you'll be able to gauge who will find your interest in poker intriguing and who will be judgmental of it. If you are spending time with someone who will react negatively to your participation then just don't talk about the game or tell them that you play.
I often choose not to tell people that are not close to me about poker, simply because I've grown tired of the conversations that occur afterwards (both negative and positive). The odd aspect of the job somehow seems to free people up to ask you very personal questions that I often find awkward. People often like to project their own insecurities on to me and I have to navigate a difficult response whereby I can defend myself and/or the game without insulting them. These things are rarely a problem with my close friends and family (which makes me very lucky) but I find it happens quite frequently when I first meet new people.
For multiple reasons I avoid telling people at live poker tables that I play for a living. I coach baseball as well so I tend to just tell them that so I don't have to deal with the frustrations of being identified as a pro in a live game.
Tell people you make money playing poker can only lead to two things. They know you have money so this makes you a target for bad things to happen. They know someone hurt by gambling and it brings up bad feelings.
Or they say stupid shit that tilts you. It's not their fault, they just don't know better and it's hard to argue because they have such strong negative experiences with gambling.
The way I think about it is this, for every graph I have where its going up, somebody else has a graph that is going down at a steeper rate because of rake. I'm not sure how many days, weeks or months I've ruined for losing players.
Poker is predatory in nature, it's a survival of the fittest game. Every time you play poker it's a fight for the death, whether you realize it or not. Because in most societies, money is time and when you run out of time you die. Players that consistently lose can't break out of the slavery of gambling, the indentured servitude of their job that supports their gambling habit.
If you want to play poker, you are going to enter the gladiator ring. So even if you are not a killer, you better become one.
-Mush
Impressive writing skills.
Thanks!
I remember laughing at these cartoons, the old but how much did u lose happens every time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQHUcE9voWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F9aU_xbppk&list=PLF0BFBECBDB7B7395
SO HOW MUCH DID YOU LOSE?
My favourite, that I get all the time: "If I give you 200$, can you double it and give me 400$ back?"
It's absolutely ridiculous.
Yes! Kill Kill Kill
Those cartoons are too funny! ROFL thanks
Start off by not telling anyone but people close to you. Those people understand what you're like, and what poker is about.
It's a reasonable prejudice given that 1. Poker is a negative sum game due to the rake and 2. The number of losers greatly outnumber winners over time.
The chances that a poker player, including those with positive results, but without a statistically significant number of hands (probably several million) is a losing player are really high.
Only a tiny % of players are long-term winners, how could poker have a good reputation?
I actually don't care anymore about what people think. Obviously they'll think some things, they're humans, they walk around with brains, and always want to share their thoughts and opinions, as if those were special. I've decided not to let other people's ideas influence me, as much as possible obviously. People will keep thinking and expressing random ideas, there's no way I'll let my well-being depend on this randomness.
For those of you that are interested here is a link to a poker variance calculator - you can play around with it and see what the liklihood of being a winning/losing player is. My favorite way to use it is to enter my hand sample, my actual standard deviation and my winrate (enter your winrate into the observed winrate box) and then enter various other winrates into the 1st winrate box. It will then spit out a bunch of interesting numbers and stats. While it is true that the more hands you have the more confidence you can have that you are truly a winner you can be relatively certain if your winrate is high enough after just several hundred thousand hands.
Variance Calculator
If you don't deposit and your BR keeps going up that's a good indicator too
If this prejudice is coming from your beloved one or someone you care about, make sure you take some time to explain how poker works, what it really takes to make money in this game, and what money means to you. It might take a while for those ideas to get instilled into their mind. But hey, we are all biased in one sense or another, and as a consequence, people don't change easily. Especially when it comes to things that they keep hearing about but don't really know much about. Politics is a perfect example. If you were a Republican, could I convert you into a Democrat overnight? Or the other way around? Or better yet, if you were indifferent to politics, could I make you get involved in some hardcore campaigns starting from next week? :)
If this prejudice is coming from other people, make sure you pay minimal attention to it and move on. It's not always easy, but def. more +EV than trying to persuade them. Chances are, these people will be sitting at your poker table, thinking "why not give poker a shot?", at some point in your poker career. Better not tap the fishbowl.
And yeah, when in doubt, just tell them you are self-employed.
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