Vision GTO Trainer Announcement
Posted by James Hudson
Posted by
James Hudson
posted in
Run It Once Training
Vision GTO Trainer Announcement
Run It Once is proud to announce that we have entered into a partnership with PLO Visions, now known as Vision. We believe that Vision is the best, easiest to use, tool available to allow players to study the game of Pot-Limit Omaha. With access to over 300 boards and 6,000 pre-solved solutions, you can quickly cycle through different PLO situations and even test yourselves with quizzes specific to certain spots.
You can find more information on Vision here, including a video from Phil Galfond walking you through all of the features available to you. If you have any additional questions on anything Vision related, please reach out to us in this thread or by emailing support@runitonce.com and we’ll get back to you as quickly as possible.
We can’t wait to see where Vision takes your game.
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Seems excellently designed!
In the very distant recesses of my mind I had aspirations of making something exactly like this, and now I don't need to!
While we're helping with design and features where we can, we can't take much credit. Our Vision partner is awesome at UX design and built a beautiful, super-intuitive product.
What BB stacks can you adjust too? I see 100 and 50, any more?
Currently just 50bb and 100bb. Feel free to suggest others (and any other improvements you'd like to see)!
Looks so good! Maybe I should try this NLHE+2cards game!
Looks great but unfortunately I don't play PLO. Btw doesn't JNandez also run something similar?
Great tool. What will stop people using this as a live assistance software?
If you attempt to use Vision while Run It Once Poker is open you’ll be redirected here:
https://www.runitonce.com/vision-policy/
Are there any safeguards to prevent Vision from being used on other sites?
Cool. Is there any way to suspect that somebody is using it by phone when playing on a desktop cpu? Btw love the product and don't want to sound negative but I'm a little worried.
I'd rather not get into the exact specifics of how we're policing this in a public forum. :)
That said we put a ton of time into implementing the best solution possible and continue to re-evaluate new technology to prevent the usage of any and all real-time software assistance on Run It Once Poker.
Hi
I have just purchased a month to try it out. I have some off the bat questions.
Visions questions:
1) What rake structure is used? It looks like it could all be rake for $1/$2 game?
2) How high quality are the preflop ranges used for the outputs?
3) WIll there be 200bb situations added?
4) How many iterations per node for postlfop spots?
5) Will there be multiway spots?
6) Will there be ways to study exploitative solutions?
7) Why at the end of the "Getting started" does it say UTG will be added but you can already toggle to UTG position with the seat icon (it makes me wonder if the graphic is just incorrect and in fact it is another positions ranges that are in play).
8) How did they choose which spots to have multiple bet sizes or not, and how can we know how much EV we are losing when adopting a simpler strategy?
It seems a lot of this information is hidden for one reason or another and players like myself will have these questions. Unless of course I am not the target for such a tool, in which case I'd like to know that too.
Cheers
Hey endymion, thanks for all the questions!
1) What rake structure is used? It looks like it could all be rake for $1/$2 game?
Rake structure is modeled after 500 Zoom (5%, 1200 msb).
2) How high quality are the preflop ranges used for the outputs?
In excess of 100 iterations per node.
3) WIll there be 200bb situations added?
This is on the product roadmap but we don't have a firm date at this time.
4) How many iterations per node for postlfop spots?
20 iterations per node.
5) Will there be multiway spots?
This is on the product roadmap.
6) Will there be ways to study exploitative solutions?
We are not planning to add this capability to the core product, but you can practice your own sims now using the Custom mode, located in the Practice tab.
7) Why at the end of the "Getting started" does it say UTG will be added but you can already toggle to UTG position with the seat icon (it makes me wonder if the graphic is just incorrect and in fact, it is another positions ranges that are in play).
Sorry for the confusion here - UTG spots are currently available up to the flop, all other spots are available up to the turn. Adding river spots for all spots is on the product roadmap.
8) How did they choose which spots to have multiple bet sizes or not, and how can we know how much EV we are losing when adopting a simpler strategy?
Postflop bet sizing options were chosen to optimize for maximum EV through testing multiple sizing options across a large sample of boards in MonkerSolver. Sizings were then reviewed and adjusted by a group of high stakes PLO players, but these adjustments were only made if the EV loss was not significant.
For example, on monotone boards, 1/10 pot size bets are often maximum EV, but this sizing is not commonly used in practice, and not significantly different in terms of overall EV than the 33% sizing used in Vision. Of course, you can quiz any sizing you like in Custom mode.
Hi Dan,
Thanks for all the answers.
Isn't 20 Iterations per node rather unreliable for postflop?
My pleasure :)
We went with 20 iterations because it represents a threshold where deviations from equilibrium are insignificant for the most part.
To begin with I would like to note that I have bought and tried the software, and it is really a feat of software engineering. Increadibly swift and easy to use, and to the degree that I have run sims side by side with my own Monkersolver results they seem quite accurate. It also seems unlikely to me that similar software is or would soon be available privately for vastly higher prices. As someone who makes a living playing PLO, I am sure that I am not alone in hoping software like this would still be ways down the line for PLO.
I would also like to add that my post comes from the perspective of a HSPLO-regular, who has been using solvers for most of my career. They are a great tool, fortunately now available to most and provides an even playing field for players. I have no issue with a study tool, what so ever.
This will be where my praise ends and I would like to raise my concerns, and I am surprised that not more comments have raised them.
The obvious issue with this product it is very viable and was developed as a real-time assistance software. This fact is so obvious that it disappoints me to see Phil Galfond and Run It Once support it. Someone else raised concerns about this in this thread and was met with a laughably naive response and the solution in place would stop exactly zero people from using it as RTA and by-passing current RIO, Stars or PartyPoker security.
Not only is it disappointing to see such software be part of RIO, it also confuses me as a business decision. Obviously this will bring some amount of revenue to the team, but it is extremly discuraging for lower stakes player attempting to make it as a professional (the very players RIO-Poker inteded to take a stand for). Vision will keep improving, adding more solutions to the point where the game is likely to be solved within the software, providing no future for players not willing to run the RTA side by side when playing on Run It Once - poker or any other site.
As of now, the cat is out of the bag and I understand that both RIO and the developers have a business to run. I am not here to tell anyone what they should or should not do but I would like to raise some potential solutions.
If Vision-software was truly intended as a study software and not RTA, developers should not have an issue adding a 30 second-or so- delay before results load. I understand that this is unlikely to happen unless Phil and the RIO-team acknowledges that this is a real-time assistance software and leans on the developers. The market for a study tool + RTA is undoubtedly larger than for just a study tool.
Another proposal aimed at the poker-sites, and Run It Once-Poker specifically, unless it wants it eco-system completly ruined by RTA, is to look at the model of no rathole-tables on ACR. These tables provide such a wide range of stack-sizes and preflop situations that I have never seen known RTA or Bots choose to play these tables. These solutions will be solved as well but would take vastly more time to complete and likely require a software to automatically retrieve correct spots in order to not run out of timebank.
//
I don't own the software, but I do agree it looks great for cheating from what I can see.
I understand your concerns and agree to a certain degree with it, I believe that this mostly concerns HU games where the game tree is much smaller and easier to maneuver.
For 6max I believe that relying on RTA is not yielding in a very high EV because the circumstances are very different and players deviate on all streets from the GTO solution , so the postflop decision recommendations of a solver are based on premises that are not reflecting reality. I could see many players choosing a solver approved decision in spots where a more exploitative approach would be in order.
So I doubt that anyone is able to get a significant edge by running vision or any other GTO trainer while playing and basing his decisions on it in a 6max game. The short timebank to take a decision and the likely required attention at other tables make it very unlikely that someone will gain an edge by running a RTA.
For HU it may be a but more of a concern, but again given the fast pace of most games (zoom) and the little potential gain makes it also not that big of an issue. The best regs have already a very good GTO understanding and shaped out strategy anyhow and the weaker regs wont be able to use the solver recommendation efficiently.
So as long as a program is not able to automatically read the board and come up with the recommended course of action I don’t think that vision will accelerate the downfall of poker in any way.
I'm also worried, but I think RIO's decision is wise. I guess tools like vision were already available on the private market. It is worth noting some benefits of having the tool by RIO:
About the last point. Let's imagine that we have suspicions about the player A. RIO checks if at a specific time someone searched for a specific flop (played by player A). If it turned out that some account was searching for this flop at this time and this happened let's say 3 times on the same account , we would have indisputable evidence of cheating. It's hard to imagine stronger evidence.
I still think it is worth considering introducing a delay when learning a particular flop. In example you can work without delay if a flop is randomly generated but if you are setting up a particular flop you have to wait 1min for the results to show up. You can request lets say 10 flops that way and view them later (1 min or later in any moment) without delay. That way learning experience would be still good but you wouldn't be able to use vision as a real-time assistance software (at least not easily).
Alien Slayer
Unfortunately this is easily scriptable
hakunamatata
This is a very nice idea, although it can be bypassed in some way. ie having multiple accounts on Vision.
Having that said, this doesn't invalidate your idea. All Vision's queries can be stored, along with the time and they can be compared to the players' hole cards and board dealt.
This isn't time consuming nor doesn't require any huge resource and it provides the exact player id to be flagged
Nice idea again
As a continuation to this, there has already been a significant number of previously really poor regs who never posted a BB HU starting to battle anyone at 100BB and quitting instantly at lower or higher stack depths on multiple sites.
I'd pretty much consider the HU format dead by now because of the software which is unfortunate, especially with Phils challenges revolving against the format. Hopefully he can find a way to enforce rules on not using the software in his own challenge at least.
Rahm93
I don't have any doubts about what you wrote.
Well, another way to make things more complex is to randomize the starting stacks at the end of every hand. Dunno how it will affect the games but still an idea.
Site have the power to do something, as PS showed in the HUSNG scandal.
I don't recall its name but there was a third-party anti-scam company who shifted the focus of its business because sites has so much power.
Well, stats don't lie, comparing stats like what chess sites do, is the way to go.
I agree 100% that something like this is necessary. "If Vision-software was truly intended as a study software and not RTA, developers should not have an issue adding a 30 second-or so- delay "
chimpraiser
This doesn't solve anything.
- A player can purchase multiple licenses and use one license per every table. Yeah it might be pricey, but it would worth it.
- Even if it is time consuming, Vision's data could be dumped into a custom software solution.
Well, regarding my last point, I'm more than sure RTA like that already exists. What Vision's devs have done is very likely it was achieve in the past, especially at high stakes where big money is available to the richest and strongest players
It does solve it, as time banks will not allow for the simulation to load before you need to make a decision.
Loading the data for every solution into a personal database is hopefully out of the technical reach for most regs.
Rahm93
Unfortunately it doesn't solve the problem, really.
Probably your solution will slow down a little bit the cheaters but it wont' stop them.
You are right though, compile and make a custom software isn't a thing a reg is able to do alone, but as HUSNG scandal showed us, it is very very likely something like that happens in PLO.
On 2p2 more than one poster who play spins wrote that a RT software was offered to them. Even at low stakes...
If instead, a site has loaded the solution into a database, it can check whether a player plays comparing him to the sims.
It is quick and automatic, and you can't escape from it.
One the one hand I am excited by the potential for study and improvement and on the other hand I don't know how much time is left on the clock.
I could really use a vid that demoed the new custom feature. I love plo, but for my life, im the worst with computers. also a simple vid demo of the new turn and river via monker feature, would help an old data machine idiot like me.... sorry. maby im your oldest and dummest customer.
btw I have used visions for a couple of month now, and it is a great tool. thx to alian slayer for introducing it .
No rule will be enforceable and this pose a problem.
Clearly, as Rahm93 pointed out correctly,the solution RIO poker implemented isn't a strong one and it can be easily bypassed.
I guess Dan Quinn knows that and all RIO staff is aware of that and looking for a fix.
I would like to suggest to RIO poker, probably the only solution to enforce its ban.
When a player request a cashout, all the plays will be confronted to the known solution.
If an anomaly is detected, the player will be automatically checked for further review and the cashout won't be approved until the final verdict. This would act as a deterrent since the end goal is to take out money from the market.
My idea is quick and automatic, at least in the first part.
Vision's solution can be instantly retrieved and confronted in a very little time. It would be completely different to check them in real-time, but only check when a player request a cashout is good, since a very very minority of the players would request it at the same time.
Any beginner coder knows that any info on the screen can be gathered and used to script Vision or any other software for that matter.
There are a ton of tricks that can be used and none of them detectable. So any attempt to enforce a rule on a player's computer will be a failure
Amazing, intuitive, user-friendly product. Would love to see added:
- Monkersolver Preflop ranges from each position
- 200 BB solutions
- River play added
Great product: A+
Thanks rum!
200BB and river play are both on the product roadmap and you can already practice preflop spots in Configure->Practice->Custom
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