NLH to the "Great Game"
Posted by RoleTide
Posted by
RoleTide
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Poker Journals
NLH to the "Great Game"
For some background info on me check out my previous journal.
I have wanted to transition into PLO for a long time. However, I have never committed to actually studying the game and giving it a real shot. Every once in a while, I would jump into the PLO streets to grind a couple thousand hands. The swings would be wild, and I would drop this pursuit quickly because of "running bad." I am a pretty big loser at PLO over my 25k hand sample, but I am a big winner over millions of hands at NLH. So why make the switch??
I am making this decision for three reasons. 1.) I have a full time job and there is no way that I can study NLH to the level required to be a high stakes crusher. So unless I plan to quit my job (not happening regardless of money), I will be a mid-stakes grinder for the rest of my career. 2.) I am tired of not being able to play in some of the juiciest games around. In my player pools, online and live, the best games can always be found in the PLO streets. I should be able to jump into a good 500PLO game with multiple fish instead of bum hunting the 1-2 fish in the 500NLH puddle. Game selection is key for a part time grinder. 3.) I like the challenge of learning a new game while I have the time this summer. I basically have all of June and July to study and play PLO before I go back to my full time job. I think I can learn the basics over that time period to be able to beat the 200PLO games and jump into the good 500PLO games when available. This will also allow me to jump into any of the live PLO games.
I still plan to play NLH during this time but most of my study and play will be at PLO. Here is going to be my basic routine for the next 2 months.
I plan to have this schedule Monday-Friday.
7-8 am~ breakfast, coffee, get the kids moving
8-9 am~ study PLO
9-11 am~ play PLO/NLH because the games are slow
11-1 pm~ break, lunch, do something with kids
1-2 pm~ study PLO
2-4 pm~ Play PLO/NLH
4-8 pm~ break, dinner, spend time w/ family, bed time routines for kids
8:30-9:30~ study PLO
9:30-11:30~ Play PLO
11:30-12~ Go to bed
My weekend schedule will be dependent on my family. However, I don't plan to study on the weekend. I will be focused on family and playing PLO with any free time. I have just started Emty's "From the Ground Up PLO" course. If you have any recommendations for other material to help me get started please let me know.
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First observations from trying to study/play PLO.
1.) My pre flop game is terrible. I play wayyyy to many hands.
2.) It takes a lot of mental energy while playing PLO. This is going to be a very difficult transition.
3.) Games are soft but the variance is high.
4.) I constantly value own myself. I think many of the players are passive at this stake with made hands when they don't have the nuts. Therefore, they prefer to check call their Q hi flushes etc...
5.) Blockers are a much more important part of our bluffing range.
6.) It is much easier to tilt when playing PLO.
7.) I probably need to buy something like Vision soon to get in some reps vs. the GTO program. That would be a more cost effective learning experience. I could play smaller stakes but I don't like paying all of the money in rake.
How do you find the course so far?
Vision might be good. It's browser based so you can have it open during games. At least that was the case when I saw Peter Clarke playing with it on his stream months ago.
Good luck out there! You should get there in no time!
lIlCitanul I think the program has a ton of value for the player type (new PLO player) it is geared toward. I am currently on Episode 12 and we are still navigating pre flop ranges. Emty is very detailed and his videos dive pretty deep into each topic. There are a little over 50 videos in the entire series. Most of the videos are around 40 minutes long and it takes me around 1 hour to get through a video with my own notes. I highly doubt you can find a better intro to PLO series for the $$.
I like that visions is browser based. That means I can use it from my phone while out and about. Thanks for the feedback!
Hi RoleTide,
I am also curious what you think about the course? Was considering to get it, but haven't made up my mind. Given that you are already looking for other resources kinda makes me believe that you find it too basic or something else :)
"I constantly value own myself. I think many of the players are passive at this stake with made hands when they don't have the nuts. Therefore, they prefer to check call their Q hi flushes etc..." --> this is something you just need to get used to. The nuts are more relevant overall.
Which stake do you start?
Your plan looks very good and intense! :) Do you have enough games running? I prefer to play in the early hours (Europe) but was actually quite surprised to see how few reg tables are running.
Cheers,
Aquila
Aquila I appreciate the list of trainers you provided. I will check out each and make a decision soon. I am going to get some coaching after I navigate the "From the Ground Up" series, and get a good feel for the basics.
I really like the course! I am only looking for other resources because I need to rep the theory concepts that I am learning to help them stick. It is nice to watch a video on 3betting from the small blind and then spend a few hours grinding that spot on a trainer. I will pick a trainer once I get through the preflop videos. In all, there are a little over 50 videos and it takes me about an hour to watch and take notes on each video. It is pretty much going to take me the entire month to watch each video only once. There is a lot of quality content for the $$
I am playing 100plo and 200plo. I should consider playing lower while working through the basics, but I think I am pretty close to break even when only playing 2 tables. I am not great but the fish are terrible and just punt stacks. I got into a 3 way all in during a single raised pot on AKJdd. I had AQJT w/ nut bdfd and the other two players just had flush draws. One had TT68dd and the other had AQ98dd. This was a $700 pot at 200plo!! Pots like this will help me keep my head above water.
I have enough games running. I am only playing 2 to 4 PLO tables at a time right now. I can autopilot a couple tables of nlh if I only have 2 PLO tables going. I don't plan to really make any money from PLO until August. I will be happy to just breakeven over this initial stretch. I appreciate your feedback!
I have played more 400 to 500 big blind pots in the past 4 days at PLO than I have in the past year at NLH. Nice to be on the good side of this 525bb pot.
I am still studying preflop ranges. This was a HUGE leak of mine prior to starting this transition. One of the big adjustments I had to make coming from NLH was thinking about pre flop pot odds and equity. It is more difficult to realize our equity when out of position in PLO. Therefore, playing multi way pots with marginal hands while out of position will get you broke very quickly.
I have a very long way to go but, I am feeling much more comfortable at the tables. I have been lucky enough to run fairly well here in the early stages.
Any updates? :)
Aquila My results have been pretty good while playing PLO. I got in around 5k hands and won 5 buy ins. I was up 10 buy ins very quickly and then went through an 8 buy in down swing. I played a few more sessions after the big downswing and won 3 more buy ins. I think I ran well over that small sample, and it is not representative of my win rate.
That being said, I have decided to reduce my PLO live play for now. I am embracing the technology available and just using a GTO trainer while doing my theoretical work. I get way more out of watching a theoretical video, on something like 3bet pots, and then repping that spot on a trainer; compared to trying to apply that theory into my live play. The problem with live play is that you have to play so many hands to simulate the spot studied from the theory video. Live play just seemed like a waste of time for my overall goal and cutting into my profits. In my opinion, one hour with the trainer is better than 5-6 hours of live play at this stage of my development.
I'm surprised you chosed to switch games. Played some live games where it was NLHE and for every orbit there was one hand of omaha. The fun players loved it and almost everybody on the table had no clue how to play lol.
I guess you are aware of the sick variance involved in PLO , considering you are older now with family and resposabilities, do you think it's a good idea to start learning a new game and face bigger variance even tho there will be edge against fun players?
FlorinCJK Your example is exactly why I chose to start studying PLO. In my online NLH player pool, most of the 500nl tables or higher contain 1 Rec and 5 Regs. It is very rare to get a table with 2 weak players. However, in my online PLO player pool, most of the 500plo tables contain 2-3 Recs and 3-4 Regs. Now these Recs are losing 25-50 bb/100. Therefore, I can be a breakeven or slightly losing player to the Regs and still have a solid win rate at the PLO tables. The live PLO tables are even better.
I am not really concerned with the variance of the game. I understand that it is higher and can come with frequent 20 buy in swings. I will always have at least 100 buy ins when playing PLO...unless I am taking a shot at a good game with a whale. I will also still be playing NLH and can rebuild my roll as needed.
Unfortunately, I am at a point in my career where being the best player is not my current goal. I am just trying to win the most money in the games available to me. I don't have access to many games above 5/10. Therefore, I am just trying to keep my head above water against the Regs, and print money from the Recs. In reality, I am pretty much a Rec for the majority of the year.
My biggest struggle thus far...
It is difficult to just make a pair in NLH. Top pair top kicker is pretty much the nuts in a lot of situations. Of course, this changes with the board texture but we rarely make big hands. Therefore, we can profitably value bet hands like A hi on dry boards or 2 pair on wet boards. Our value range is made up of a lot of non nutted hands. Not surprisingly, one of the biggest leaks for many NLH players is not value betting thinly enough. Scare cards come and many prefer to check down their hand. This lack of "thin" value betting has a huge impact on profits and makes our range much easier to play against. I struggle with this when playing heads up. This was something Steve Paul noted during my session review. I didn't adjust my betting to the weaker pre flop ranges.
The "Great Game" is a different beast though. Having twice as many cards to work with gives us much stronger hands post flop. We are making a bunch more sets, straights, flushes, and full houses now. We manage to backdoor a ton of strong hands. However, the best players still know how to extract value with their non nutted hands. The difficult part for NLH players is that our value range looks a little different in PLO. The adjustments to our value range seem obvious on the surface but I constantly find myself in muddy waters. My instincts fail me all the time. I constantly bet parts of my range that should be checked and find myself checking parts of my range that should be bet. I feel lost frequently. It is not a good feeling to be honest.
Fortunately, we have the technology available to get immediate feedback on our decisions without paying a high price. I am feeling more confident after spending some time with a GTO trainer. For those trying to learn a new game...I would recommend just playing against the robot overlords and learning game theory fundamentals through a book or video series.
Which trainer did you go with? How is the journey?
I was just wondering how it's going?
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