Live poker anxiety
Posted by Jarvis Blocker
Posted by
Jarvis Blocker
posted in
Mental Game
Live poker anxiety
Hello runitonce,
Background: I've played poker for a living for 7 years and probably ~5M hands during that time, and I've had some live tournament success as well including a 6 fig live MTT score and some smaller wins, I've played like 98% online volume-wise but have always kinda enjoyed live poker more. I'm pretty strictly an MTT player but occasionally play cash both online and live as well. I think I'm about average in social situations, I'm not scared of talking to random people, am not introverted and probably am actually a bit more social than your average poker player.
I'm sure many people suffer from these feelings, but I'd love to hear any solutions besides "you need to play more live poker". Basically, whenever I play live poker regardless of the stakes, I get really anxious on and off. Sometimes I get in the "zone" and I'm completely fine for a couple of hours, and then some hand comes and I snap out and I get shaky.
This seems to happen by far the most often when I have a big hand (but not necessarily a big pot or a big money situation). I played a live 2k some time ago where I had aces on the first level infinite BBs deep (so a spot that's not really going to be that huge for me really) and just upon seeing my hand preflop I became incredibly shaky, my pulse started racing super fast and I couldn't control my breath at all like the worst type of live fish. I think it was pretty obvious to everyone in the room I had a huge hand.
For some reason, whenever I run a big bluff I don't seem to get anywhere near that shaky, I'd say my visible live tell giving range is like 90% strong hands and 10% bluffs. I'd guess for a lot of people the anxiety comes more when they are bluffing, because of the fear of being caught doing something silly, for me it seems to be the opposite but probably the same process in the brains.
I'ts noteworthy that I'm 100% sure that this doesn't have anything to do with the amounts of money involved. It seemed like a logical thing to do to try playing some meaningless stakes so I actually went and logged 20 hours in a local 1/1 game where winning/losing the biggest of pots wouldn't matter to me in the slightest $-wise. And it was exactly the same... I've been in situations with 100k on the line and I was (due to being in the zone I guess) much less shaky than I was in the 1/1 game today having KK and an overpair in a $8 pot.
Today in my "experiment game" playing the live micro cash I tried to follow and listen to my thoughts and feelings really closely when the attacks came and virtually all the time it was the same - I'd get just a tiny bit nervous and maybe have a slightly shaky hands throwing chips into the pot, and then I'd start thinking about "damn I hope it doesn't get worse or they might notice", and then it obviously gets worse, and I'm thinking "oh shit they must see this now, THEY KNOW", and then I can't stop it at all. I also tried taking a really long time with an easy decision trying to let me breath settle, talking to myself in my head like "it's a $35 pot, you know what do with 100% certainty, what the hell are you nervous about?", and I just couldn't stop it at all.
This does seem to be directly related to being in the spotlight in some way, because for example if I have some really tough call situation where my opponent shoves the river and it's for actually a lot of money I don't really get anxious at all. But it's weird because I really don't have any kind of performance anxiety, I could go ahead and give a speech to 1000 people right now without having my heart race more than the next guy.
So, how do people deal with these things? As I write this I'm watching the WSOP ME ft live stream and it makes me want to cry trying to imagine myself in there under all the spotlight. There's been a couple of live poker related videos here at RIO and it'd be cool to hear feedback from people like Chidwick, how did you transform from online grinders to live crushers in this sense?
It's noteworthy that in my home country weed and all prescription meds you could probably get for this in the USA are virtually inaccessible. Are there any herbs or natural remedies or something like that that could possibly help? I recently started meditating and I'm really hoping it'll make a difference, anything else?
All advice is welcome.
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In case it was a bit unclear my main symptoms would be:
-Shaky hands / stiff body / non-relaxed muscles (so I fumble chips more etc)
-Pulse racing
-Uncontrollable breathing, when these start I seem to intuitively hold me breathe for some reason, and then I start running short of breathe and as a result start breathing harder and faster and then can't stop it at all
-Redness in the face/cheeks
Hey Jarvis.
I don't know that I have your answer, but I wanted to jump in and say thank you for the great post and excellent question. The biggest leak in most players' game is that they can't see their own faults, so it's always a breath of fresh air to hear someone saying, "I'm bad at this. Help!"
I dealt with this on a smaller scale when I started playing live. The most important thing to remember is that you shouldn't project your thought process on to other people, and you need to keep in mind that you have a LOT of information that they don't.
When you are looking down at AA and your hands shake, it's so obvious to you what you look like you have, but I promise you that from where they're sitting (hopefully out of eyeshot of your hole cards) it's not nearly as clear.
Some people are great at reading live tells, but they are few and far between - at least compared to what public perception is. Most people don't have enough confidence in that ability to let it change their play significantly, and many that do have the confidence are actually seeing patterns where none exist.
I'm sure this isn't in your head and that you actually are visibly shaking when you have good hands and rarely when you are bluffing - just know that there's no way it's as clear to them as it is to you.
The great thing too, about hiding tells in live poker, is that if they see you shake 12 times in a day (which is a lot of good hands!), they likely see 2-3 showdowns. If you're lucky, one of those three ends up being a bluff (well, only kind of lucky I guess), and they'll give up on finding a pattern.
All that said, the easiest short-term solution by far - shake intentionally, and often.
You can't prevent yourself from shaking (for now) when you've got a great hand, but you absolutely can force yourself to be shaky when you don't.
It's hard to have the presence of mind and the courage to make yourself shake when running a huge bluff, but do your best. And to be safe, just make your hands shake all the time! Shake as you throw in a preflop call with T9s or 55. Shake when you c-bet a gutter and two overs.
If I see someone shaking over 1/3 of the time they put chips in the pot, including a small # of chips, I basically give up on investigating further.
From there, what you need to do is remind yourself that they can't tell the difference. It will probably feel like they can, but I'd bet that 98+% of your opponents won't be able to.
They have their own things to worry about- remembering their cards, deciding what to do next, reading your hand, feeling excited/afraid/hopeful, trying to hide their own emotions.
You have to trust that intentionally giving off fake-tells will be enough to keep you balanced - just like when you're running a bluff and telling yourself that your range is protecting you.
The last thing I'll say - I don't know how much you focus on reading other players and their tells, but I'd suggest you focus even more on it. Watch them, make assumptions, and see what happens at showdown. I suspect that seeing how easy it is to be completely wrong about a live tell will help you realize what others are actually seeing/feeling when they watch you.
GL!
Just saw your 2nd post - you can try to replicate the other tells as well, though pulse and redness will be tough. Again though, doing all the other things will be enough to distract them from finding the one that you can't fake.
Hey Phil, and thanks for the insightful (as always) post!
I think that balancing it with just being shaky and kind of all over the place isn't a bad idea at all to be honest. I thought of something like this actually - I'm really sensitive to caffeine and get shaky / hyper from that really easily, so I was thinking of experimenting with getting overloaded with that and just being super shaky/hyper all the time. I think something like that will work out for not having my live tells exploited pretty well.
However, and I probably didn't stress this enough in the OP, it doesn't really affect the key problem of being uncomfortable. I'm pretty sure that having these attacks also affects my thought processes at least to some extent (even if not directly as in making huge mistakes, but just taking mental energy I could otherwise use to catch some tiny thing, etc). And it dramatically affects my table presence, because of this I don't really want to lean forward on the table and stare at my opponents.
If you look at van Hoof for example right now in this ME coverage, he's super intimidating, and playing live HU against him would just be so tough because of his presence. I understand that we can't all be naturally like that, but I'd like to be able to have at least a some kind of dominating / intimidating presence and to be able to stare my opponents down in key moments if I feel like it, but instead I'm the guy covering myself in a hoodie and sunglasses passively staring at the board.
I'm not saying you can't win at live poker even if you just stare at your cards/board with zero interaction and look like a scared nerd all the time, but it really feels to me that the presence adds up to your winrate in a way. And same goes for being comfortable at the table, even if I feel like my mind is relatively clear and I'm not butchering things badly strategy-wise despite being anxious, I'm pretty sure there's just no way I can be playing as well in actuality as I'd be online at the comfort of my own home not having all these extra worries.
So to be able to even practice having that presence feels like I'd have to get over quite a lot of things first, because how am I going to be the guy who always gives people the stare in pots we play against each other when I'm spending all my energy masking my anxiety or balancing it with faking more anxiety?
I think when dealing with shaking when you get a big hand it just means you need to get a lot more live experience. The fact you say your volume is 98% online/2% live means you are just not comfortable. If you switched these percentages around and evaluated a few months later I would assume you would be close to finding a solution.
A small issue I can foresee is that if you are going to attempt to pretend you are shaking to throw them off and then you are naturally shaking there could be subtle nuances that make these distinguishable. But I wouldn't worry about anyone soulreading you in live poker unless you are playing against top tier opponents and even then they are not sure.
Just don't sigh and act disgusted and then shove all in over a bet with the nuts. :).
"I'm pretty sure there's just no way I can be playing as well in actuality as I'd be online at the comfort of my own home not having all these extra worries."
Has there ever been a moment or a hand where you did feel as comfortable live as you would online? Can you think of a moment where you were in a social setting where you felt as comfortable as you do when you're playing online?
If the answer is yes, then you CAN do it. You've done it before so you are capable of it now. Focus on those moments where you did feel comfortable.
"So to be able to even practice having that presence feels like I'd have to get over quite a lot of things first, because how am I going to be the guy who always gives people the stare in pots we play against each other when I'm spending all my energy masking my anxiety or balancing it with faking more anxiety?"
I think this last statement is very profound. It reminds me of a quote from Socrates-'The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but on building the new.'
I think in order to feel as comfortable live in all situations as you do online you need to stop focusing on making yourself not ever feel nervous or anxious, but instead learn to feel comfortable despite that anxiety. It's just a feeling or an emotion. Everyone has them, believe it or not.
My recommendation would be to reframe that thought into something that empowers you a little more and actually looks achievable. As someone who gets a decent bit of anxiety, especially in pubic, I can tell you that's it's probably not going away. If I said to myself every day before I left the house "I have to get rid of this anxiety then I can go out and interact with people" I'd be stuck in my house on most days. Instead, I say to myself "Let's go out and have some fun and connect with people today. What can I do to improve other people's lives today?" The great thing about this statement is that It allows me to get outside of my own head and to add value to other people's lives. It's not about "me" and my problems anymore. Often times I can really get into the zone with this and I'll feel completely relaxed and in the moment just from this simple reframe. Give it a try and let me know what you think.
just don't ever look at your hole cards.
but seriously: can you play pool at all ? is there a pool hall in your town ? if you went down there, you could play in a tournament or play with some sharks for cash and see how your game changes from when there is nothing on the line. if nothing else, its a scientific way to further pin down the stimuli and scenarios that trigger the reaction you wish to more adequately regulate. along the same lines: what happens when you're playing for matchsticks ? do you still get the shakes when you see AA ?
you could do the same thing if you play tennis or chess or anything else competitive that people might be willing to put money on. if money is no item, just go find someone you know will beat you and bet them $20 that you'll win.
Hmm, very interesting. This sounds a lot like the yips, and it's a little scary to know that many people don't recover from the yips :(
I've had and have similar issues except not as extreme or convoluted - for a time when I would look down at a premium I'd get a kind of stiff shiver in the neck that I had trouble stopping. In my case I think it would have been explained by too much tension in my body plus a lack of regular live play and a lack of confidence in my table presence. With practice and improved health it stopped being an issue. I have the same hopes for you but it sounds like you've built up a strong neural pathway that is playing tricks with your brain, I know those can be pretty powerful but don't know how best to approach reversing them.
There's definitely plenty of natural remedies you'd do well to try. I'm not sure what the best ones are, but for example I was taking 'Adaptan' by Metagenics during the WSOP with noticeable benefits, I think 5HTP is great too. I'd spend a few hours seeing what direction google leads you.
My first reaction when you mention shaky hands is that you should check your blood sugar level if you haven't recently. It's hard to figure whether it's likely to be a physical health issue or just all in your mind, the most surprising is that you say you've no anxiety issues beyond this situation. How healthy do you think you are, how stressed?
Hey James and thanks for getting back to me!
Re: Yips, this is something I hadn't actually thought of but I think it makes sense. I'm going to tell a little backstory: as a junior I did tennis for a few years with a coach and got pretty good. I eventually quit at maybe 15 years old. Anyway, so I had this friend who never had a coach and never really cared for it, but is somehow naturally really good at it - I think if he'd have gotten coaching from a young kid he could have done extremely well on a national scale at it. Me and this friend started playing together once a month or so a few years after I'd quit, when we were 18 or so, and we'd always have these insanely tough matches. Literally every time we'd be at 2-2, 4-4 or something and then I'd get the yips and he'd win. This went on for like 3 years without me ever winning, but coming close every time. Often I'd lead like 2-0, 3-0 or something and then go on to lose. He never cared at all and never gave me much shit about it when I lost, but I always wanted to win (being a fiercely competitive person) so bad and generated heaps of pressure for myself.
Then, after maybe three years I decided to order some books on tennis and golf mental game. Conveniently we had a longer break from our games there and during that couple of months I studied maybe 6 books on the subject... and the next game we played, I won him for the first time ever, and I never lost to him since (he eventually quit playing me altogether).
We never played for a cent of money, these results were never posted anywhere so there was really no audience, no glory, no money involved, which is why I never thought / realized it may be the yips with live poker as well. It feels different because with tennis I always worried about screwing up, you know the feeling when you have a match point and you're already visualising in your head screwing it up before you even serve and then you double fault, whereas with live poker I really don't care if I do something dumb and "lose my face". But, maybe it comes down to being worried about being a tellbox which sure is one way to screw up in live poker as well, and since it comes down to situations when I have a premium hand, maybe it could be a "fear of winning" in the same sense as with tennis? Like, when you're so close to winning (a match in tennis / getting a big double-up in a tournament), and you know all you have to do is to just do your thing and nothing extra, and all of a sudden doing that thing becomes a lot harder? One of the situations in live poker I actually hate the most is something like when I flop a set against some massive spastic, call a check-raise on the flop leaving PSB, and on a brick turn I wait in position for him to shove which I think he's doing 95% of the time. This should obviously be one of your favourite things ever, just sitting there grinning inside waiting to get the donation, but I often find myself so nervous and worried and my heart races and pulse 5x:s in these spots and I'm like "please don't look at me, please let's just get this over with".
Re: national remedies, if you have any at home would you mind checking what are the ingredients in adaptan (somehow their website doesn't give this information nor does google?), it seems to be an aussie product which I can't order to the other side of the world, but I could probably find the same ingredients in a different form. Regarding 5-HTP, how do you take it? When I've been googling these things on and off over the years it's popped up every now and then but I've never given it a try. It seems to be recommended to take it at night because it also makes you a bit sleepy, so do you just take it regularly once a day for an overall better/calmer mood, or do you take it with caffeine or something for a special boost before a big tournament?
My blood sugar levels are fine, I just went to a doctor for something else and had that checked. I definitely am stressed about 9/10 (10 being the most stressed), but then again it's been that way for years - I'm about as big a stresser naturally as they come and playing poker for a living doesn't exactly help with that. Overall I'm pretty healthy, I'd say 8/10 - I exercise regularly, eat pretty well and don't have any diseases or so.
I also contemplated seeing a mindfulness coach, in my country it's still a new thing but I found a guy who seems great and who's been studying it abroad for years. I think that might help - I've been trying to practice it on my own on and off for ages with youtube vids and so on, but my mind always feels way to ADHD to really get results so I feel like maybe I need a professional to give me that first kick and get me on the right track.
Sorry for tldr, that was a lot of rambling
Yeah that does sound a mental issue centering around the pressure of expectation; it sounds like you must have strengthened negative thoughts and emotive responses in these situations from a young age. To draw on my own experience again: I was a tennis player too and besides getting nervous hitting a second serve after double faulting the previous point I don't think I had many negative thoughts in my head (besides frustration); certainly never envisaged screwing up a match point. I agree that it'd be worth seeing a psychiatrist and or mental coach to try to get to the bottom of it.
Adaptan: Rehmannia glutinosa, Panax quinquefolius (American ginseng), Avena sativa, Lavandula angustifolia. It's practitioner only here so you probably can't order it. I take 100mg 5-htp first thing in the morning and before sleeping (got that from googling) until I run out (not supposed to be long term) - it has had a huge effect on mood, controlling appetite and especially sleep quality. It may not be as relevant to your needs though, don't know. I really think it's important to see the right people and to do your own extensive research to find what's right for you.
Just another thought - if you're as stressed as you say you may not be as 'healthy' as you think. Everything I've read and experienced suggests that stress undermines the body in many ways that are still being discovered.
I'm no expert so I could be off base with a lot of what I've said! All the best.
Great thread. I suffer from social anxiety in general and that has prevented me from playing more live. Online playing anonymously i can concentrate making +ev decisions whether it is running a huge bluff or taking a trappy line with nuts. But playing live gets really overwhelming. Even playing really baby stakes with friends can make me really uncomfortable. I tremble more so when bluffing and way less when i have it. And thought process gets ruined with all sort of crappy dialogue i have with myself.
But for sure im able to overcome these problems atleast to some degree if i put my mind to it. I personally want to avoid all drugs etc and just work on changing my thought process. I think i need to learn to take playing live as a life experience that one should learn to enjoy. It shouldnt matter if im shaky and nervous at first, but to appreciate the fact im playing interesting game with other people rather than against screen names alone at home. I hope learning to appreciate the moment helps me to get rid of current dialogue with myself and help to concentrate on nice things instead. And also to accept what ever comes instead of being fixated to achieving certain things in order to feel satisfied.
I kind of have the same problem and I'm mostly a live player. Phil is right about giving of false tells. You don't even have to fake it. Just make yourself feel nervous and your body will give of the tells.
I also like to wear sunglasses to the table. Normally I HATE when another player stares at me but with sunglasses in feels like a wall is between us. I feel a lot less nervous.
I get sooo shaky playing live, but luckily I'm extremely balanced in that I'm shaky almost every hand I play. Certainly running bluffs makes it worse though, which I know conceptually to be stupid as bluffs are just part of the game, but my unconscious tends to win out.
I don't really worry about it from a strat POV. As Phil says, I doubt people particularly notice or can do anything about it if they do. It's just, really embarrassing lol.
This seems like a perfect application to practice some visualization.
Close your eyes. Visualize yourself in these exact spots acting in compete control and relaxed.
You can also experiment with affirmations (I know this word gets a woo-woo bad rep sometimes, but it works even if it's just a placebo -- you have nothing to lose). Just write down every time before you go play poker:
"I always act in a calm manner at the poker table." or something like that, use your own words and it'll be better.
If you do these two things for a bit, you'll build the self-image and habit eventually.
everyone itt is overcomplicating this
seems like a couple glasses of scotch will be the best solution
When I first played live a few times, I began to feel very hot in the face like I could feel my face get very warm whenever I got delt a great hand. So, I started to wear shorts and skirts and loose tops to lessen the hot flashes Id feel. And no, I'm not going thru menopause ;)
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