A spot that continues to affect me

Posted by

Posted by posted in Mental Game

A spot that continues to affect me

The common theme is that villain makes a play for the pot where he has very few outs to win (4 or less is my threshold here and its usually AI on the turn so his equity to drops to 8% or less). The pot is greater than 100b OR villain makes an overbet / commits way too many chips far behind. As such there is more on the line than a standard 100bb stack. 

My composure has been really good the last two weeks, these two hands stand out because I was completely aware of my mood change and wanted to stop my session immediately. Since, my emotional reaction to these two hands were quite substantial i think they deserve attention.  

Feelings: are that of dismay and disappointment. As opposed to anger/frustration.

Thoughts: "Why does it have to happen when we deeper and it counts more?!" "Why me? Why now?"

Here are the two hands in question:

4bet pot KK

set facing villian's cbet/3b and turn overshove

I'm trying to dissect where i can improve my mental processes here? Is it entitlement tilt that i'm feeling? Since the villain really blundered do i feel like the pot is meant to be mine? Does it just hurt more because i perceive there is more on the line? Both hands are a really good spot to pick up or chips or win a decent size pot, is that what's affecting me?

If villain had to shove a flush draw on the flop and it gets there on the river, I wouldn't have the same reaction. So do i simply learn to move my tolerance threshold for not realizing 90%+ equity (from 50%-80% per say) or is something else going on here? I'm wondering if it matters that villain was trying to bluff me? Have i created a built-in 'acceptable' level of bluffing equity that i'm 'allowing' villain to use against me? - i'm speculating here as i try to delve into what i may be thinking

Since, i did react poorly in these situations i'm hoping to improve my emotional control in these spots in the future. Any thoughts? 

23 Comments

Loading 23 Comments...

GameTheory 11 years ago

I general you want your opponents to bluff you with little to no equity. When you call those bluffs you should win very often. In general you should be happy when opponents make spewy plays against your range (unless you try to exploit your opponents by overbluffing and rebluffing you becomes optimal).

You should think about your turn ranges and how often you fold versus these shoves, in both hands they probably have some fold equity, so theirs bluffs aren't that terrible. You don't always have a strong hand in those spots (or at least you shouldn't have). So they don't run that hot as you perceive they are running because a lot of the value from their shoves comes from making you fold your hand.


Daz 11 years ago

Yes i agree, i will do the analysis. Of course i want my opponent to be bluffing at me with little or no equity, my problem is that i'm not handling the situation very well when they do realize their equity. I am generally weighted towards value in these spots given i've already marked the opponent as someone willing to play back light OR overplay their hands - so the bluff portion of my range would be much smaller. 

Everyday 11 years ago

i think the reason you react this way might be, when you get bad beated like that, it subconsciously feels extremely unfair/injustice because you have been soo much of a favorite and villian at the same time "gets rewarded" for making a bad play simply feels "super unfair", at least to our subconscious.

Our Biological Response to Unfairness:

While we all learned about fairness in childhood, scientists have proven we’re actually hardwired for it.

Studies have shown that the reward centers of our brains activate when we recognize fairness—even when it pertains to someone else. When we witness unfairness, it triggers our amygdala, the primitive part of the brain that controls fear and anger.

This means that when we feel like we’ve been treated unfairly, we go into “fight or flight” mode, with its resulting sense of anxiety.

Psychologists suggest that when we fight for fairness for others, it’s actually self-interest in disguise; meaning we’ve recognized it provides us with some type of advantage to be fair.

No matter how you slice it, we experience a strong, instant physical and biological reaction to perceived injustices, and this can limit our ability to think rationally and respond proactively.

Daz 11 years ago

I mostly agree, although this statement below, sounds like it makes the same errors as psychological egoism. One would have altruistic intentions when including the interests of others.

"Psychologists suggest that when we fight for fairness for others, it’s actually self-interest in disguise; meaning we’ve recognized it provides us with some type of advantage to be fair."

GameTheory 11 years ago
Thoughts: "Why does it have to happen when we deeper and it counts more?!" "Why me? Why now?"

First off, you can look at your database if you really run bad in these type of spots. Also you can compare it to other all-in EV situations, if you run bad in one part and hot in another part then you can convince yourself that it is just variance. Also, running bad is very natural in poker, maybe you should reads some stories about players that run way worse than you to feel better about your own beats.

my problem is that i'm not handling the situation very well when they do realize their equity. 
Feelings: are that of dismay and disappointment. As opposed to anger/frustration.

So you feel disappointed, which means that you care about the money. You can try to play at lower stakes or play higher volume, or just get used to bad beats more often.

For instance, when you get KK vs AK all-in preflop, and the river is an ace, does it feel the same as when he tries to bluff you on the turn and rivers the ace?

Is it really a big difference if you went all-in preflop and he had 3 outs on the turn or all-in or all-in on the turn?

Daz 11 years ago

"For instance, when you get KK vs AK all-in preflop, and the river is an ace, does it feel the same as when he tries to bluff you on the turn and rivers the ace?"

-No, and that's the point

"Is it really a big difference if you went all-in preflop and he had 3 outs on the turn or all-in or all-in on the turn?"

Absolutely! Getting AK AIPF would be standard in most spots. Where as (reciprocality) i don't find myself bluff shoving in bloated pots with almost no FE and then binking 4 outs OTR.

Remember i know my thinking is wrong, but at the moment i' m not able to respond well emotionally to these types of situations. My threshold needs to change but i'm wondering if there is anything else that is also affecting me.

Chael Sonnen 11 years ago

The first hand is just bad luck. I'd size the bets a little bigger when this deep, but bet-calling turn is the river play. Make sure to run it twice, and you did everything you could.

Same for the second hand. I'm not sure whether I prefer 4-betting the flop small, but calling to keep is range wide is definitely good, and I'm obviously never folding the turn. This looks like some kind of turned combo draw, specifically AhXh.

Not a fan of his sizing here. It forces him to cut down on his bluffs a lot. Also doubt he's jamming a balanced range of sets and combo draws. 1/3 pot seems better when he doesn't have to worry about giving you pot odds very much, because your range is not draw heavy.

ItsToothPasteISwear 11 years ago

Daz,

How often do you look at your results? Have you given any thought to not looking at them for an extended perioid of time?

I only look at mine every 2 weeks, sometimes I go even longer. I think it really helps for when you are running bad, because it all sorta just gets lost in the noise. I mean I still know sometimes when im running really bad, but theres no quantitative numbers for me to latch on to and fester over. Im not saying its a cure all by any means, getting sucked out on still stings, but I think the overall impact of the swings (both good and bad) is sorta leveled out as I don't really know about them.

Its also just a lot nicer overall even when im not running bad. I used to carry my results with me away from the table (bad time at the poker, meant I was in a bad mood the rest of the day, and vice versa). If you have no idea how you did, its not really possible to be effected away from the table by how you did. Not knowing your results also doesnt allow accumulations to build up. I dont know if Ive had a few losing days in a row and go into the next session already agitaed that things arent going well, or is my downswing going to get worse today? Or any number of emotions like that. Its just another day at at the table.

might be worth experimenting with for you. I think ive worked through most of the problems I had that led me to deciding no to looking at my results, so that I dont think it would effect me like it used to, but honestly, its just nice to not even have to care about it, so I still continue to not look.


Daz 11 years ago

I really like this idea i'm just concerned about my current BR. If i knew i had 100 buy ins for my limit i would definitely do this. I am aiming to build up ASAP. Right now its very important i grind out 3 buy ins every day this month - 50NL. That gets me to a much healthier bankroll and allows me to settle expenses/debt. I can then take shots at 100NL 200NL again. And play some HU and PLO. 

mike 11 years ago

I will tell you what my mother told me a thousand times when i complained about anything growing up - "Life is not fair".  Little did she know she was preparing me to be a poker player :)

It may also help to think about poker as a range game - when you play your range better you win and try focusing on that instead of the outcome

Lastly - when I take a beat that bothers me I usually say something to myself like "the games are good now get back in the fight"


Juan Copani 11 years ago

Just play hands, don´t think about the money, about if you loose, or if you win. Play hands and make EV+ decisions all the time.

Daz 11 years ago

So, in trying to delve into what might be happening, i think there are three components:

1) A threshold equity - which i later reason to be an arbitrary figure I've created in mind

2) Higher stakes, deeper stacks, further into the tournament - the only real logical component whereby emotions are heightened when there is more on the line than usual

3) Villain is ACTIVELY trying to bluff me - which i'm taking as a personal attack? Villain "gets away with it"

So with number 1 above. RIO members were quick to point out that opponents realizing their equity is a natural part of the game. Unless they are drawing dead they will win the pot with some frequency and when playing 1000s hands per day it will happen. So to find resolution here i must simply accept the game for what it is and further improve and maintain the skill of variance recogition

Number 2 is only a problem if the heightened emotion causes me to play badly. 

Number 3 needs some attention. Maybe if i use it as fuel to play better than ever, as @mike pointed out 

"Lastly - when I take a beat that bothers me I usually say something to myself like "the games are good now get back in the fight""

Thanks guys for your responses

danielmerrilees 11 years ago

In terms of what? Ive just been reading all of your activity and my honest conclusion is that you need to quit poker. Fast

danielmerrilees 11 years ago

Like your whining like a lil bitch about basic spots where youve been sucked out on. Shows me that you do not have the mental toughness to make a career out of poker. Stick to personal training or somthing. GL x

Daz 11 years ago

I would like to improve my 'mental toughness' in poker, do you have advice besides quitting?

danielmerrilees 11 years ago

not your mental toughness in poker. Your mental toughness in general. Get a sports psychologist or you will be doomed to grind out a living. Poker is tough for everyone and only the people with a very refined defined skillset make waves in the game, the rest are just elephants eating peanuts. Honestly apart from quiting go and play live/ give me your roll and we split winnings :P

playaz8 11 years ago

You wouldn't allow yourself to play the hand the way they did if the spot where inversed and they got reward for something you wouldn't do so you get tilted by the idea of never being in their spot where they find a miracle suck out. All of this because you use a different game that you judge to be generaly better than your oppoent. But in that game you don't have the move they have AND you are convicted that if you would try the same line they used you would get failure...so your tilt come from finding no succes issue in these spot cuz in your mind you put yourself in you own shoe and got beat, but if you put yourself in vilain shoes you would have lost too from not playing the hand the whey they did....but all of this is just SHORT THERM.

analihilator 11 years ago

play some PLO. then you will LOL at 4 outers in NL, because you get hit by worse every day in PLO :)

Daz 10 years, 11 months ago

I was down for the session and decided to fight back, things were looking up then this happened:

.. Torture 44 on 664 3 river Q "pay me off" says villain after cbet/3betting and bombing turn 150bb deep

With the speech on the river,  when the river comes down I get that sickly feeling that he is sitting with QQ but with most of the money in on the turn its a trivial call the times he has 6x 75 or AA/KK

It didn't feel as bad as before so i know i'm getting better mentally in these spots but its a real pity because after that i'm losing 7 buy ins and not sure if i should continue so decided to quit the session.

I was putting in some reasonably consistent results but this puts me back to square one again for the month. I'm working really hard at this game. Its tough to make money when you have the 2nd best hand all the time. 

I was making mistakes in the session but i was happy because then it meant if i get it right i will win. I knew if i kept at it it can turn around. Damn just bummed about today that's all

Be the first to add a comment

Runitonce.com uses cookies to give you the best experience. Learn more about our Cookie Policy