awesome vid. Definitely enjoy the tough 3bpots OOP. Such an needed topic of discussion. Agreed with all of your explanations, the only hand I thought might be questionable was AQhh. I think just bet betting or check raising might be better than check calling with that hand. I tend not to XR many flops, after giving up the lead in 3b pots(although maybe that will be trendy soon) so I would lean towards bet betting. Even vs made hands we have a ton of equity, are ahead of some hands that are getting it in. Just seems too strong to play passively and check call flop. Dont we get barreled off the best hands in some brick brick board runouts?
Well my response would be pretty much the exact same one I provided in the video.
A few maybe additional points:
1. Yes, we get barreled off the best hand ocasionally. What does it change though really? I've already said we can't tripple barrel as a bluff anyway. I.e. If villain is holding QJ (the most frequent barreling hand in his shoes once checked to him) - he will win the hand 100% of the time if the turn and river are bricks no matter what action we choose on the flop.
2. I think you may be a lot more right when it's a SB vs CO situation. Like now if we c/call both AQhh and AKhh as well as AThh (not 100% sure how this hand plays better) and JThh (very clear c/call for me) we're kind of left with just a few combos of flushdraws that we barrel away. This seems like a mistake I made when creating this video. I fairly often one sadly, I tend to treat CO as BTN too often. However without going in-depth on my own ranges I can't really say whether everything I said in this paragraph becomes an actual issue in my gameplan. Furthermore I said that Im using a mixed strat and both AK/AQ are c/calls about half of the time so basically in the end we only lose like 1 combo of flushdraw in our cbetting range which I believe can't be an issue nor exploitable in any way.
This wasn't a several part vid. At least I didn't intend on creating more on this topic. I guess I could if more people show interest in it as I still haven't decided what's my next vid going to be.
I dont think I will be able to find enough interesting spots when we're OOP. My database was recently cleared up a bit and it's not such a high occurance spot overall. IP is obviously very doable and I might just do that.
Thanks for the video! In the AQhh hand, why don't you consider check-raising the flop? That way you make his air and perhaps other hands fold and you get it in against his one pair hands as a favorite or coin flip. (But perhaps I'm thinking this because I play MTTs/SNGs and I don't play cash.)
How am I going to balance this without losing too many precious hands in my cbetting range? Having a c/raising range is all fine and good but it has its own costs like significantly weakening my cbetting range.
I think we're often gonna get called by his 1 pair hands leaving us in an awkward spot OTT where nothing better folds nor anything worse calls yet having only a pot sized bet left. Our equity does drop signifcantly on blank turns and on heart turns I dont think we're getting paid by his one pair hands. Now on the other hand if he bets the flop, turn comes a heart and goes check check then I dont think he's ever folding to a river lead when he's holding a flopped 1 pair hand. Sort of even outs in terms of value gained.
On the first hand if we have a value range of something like AK KQ K5s 77 55 22 and 75s 64s that's only about 51 combos if he doesn't have a K. If he does have a K then we only have about 44. Assuming he does have a K and we're betting 3/4 pot on the river then we can only have about 16 bluff combos. So the question is whether we should barrel off the 16 combos of AQ or something like AQs AJs QJs JTs. I guess it comes down to whether or not we want to be barreling QJs JTs on the turn or not. On the offsuit turn I think we are better off with the 16 combos of AQ so we block KQ and sometimes have 3 outs. When the turn is suited, though, maybe we should switch to the sixteen combos of AQs AJs JTs QJs so all flushes will be in our range if the flush completes on the river.
"I guess it comes down to whether or not we want to be barreling QJs JTs on the turn or not. On the offsuit turn I think we are better off with the 16 combos of AQ so we block KQ and sometimes have 3 outs. "
I'm really not sure what you're asking me but this seems pretty close to what I said in the vid. Basically the reason why I wanted to double AQ hands rather than TJ QJ (which have better potential as tripple barrels) is because it's not drawing dead or at least not drawing dead as often as TJ QJ hands are.
Id also stay away from 3betting K5s 75s 64s. 22 is a bit too loose for me vs most as well.
great vid, i would like to hear more interesting spots where you use blockers in your hand (that block parts of villains value or air range) to dictate your play. A video on that would be great.
hi jonas, very nice video. You open in my mind new solutions how to play the 3betted pot oOP. I'd like very well how you play the hands AhQh and J8s, but i have a doubt when you play AhTh.
when i saw the hand, at turn villain check in position. I suppose he holding showdown values hand, like a pair 88 99 TT or a straight, or a pair with a gutshot, like 78s, 68s, but i trust all bluffs he bets turn and not check behind. When he bets river, his range is strong, and your fold equity is too small for try the bluff. Do you agree?
1. If we have the QJ or QT as you said in the video, how to block the BTN's range like KQ KJ or KT? I m not full understand of this point
2. As I know, use hands like QJs QTs KJs to 3betting resteal from the SB or BB, it seems like our hands will fall behind the opponents always if we hit a pair on the flop. because the opponents will have the hand like AQ AJ AT. Can you give me any idea about this?
in the first hand, you said if our hands like QJ or QT, we can block villain's hands like KQ KJ ot KT. I am not understand at this. how can we block villain's range like that? could you please tell me why?
in my experience, if we three betting the hands like QJ QT JT OOP, our hands seems like always fall behind the villain's when we hit a pair on the flop. Because villain will call the 3betting like AQ, AJ or AT.
Well if you're holding KcQc then villain can no longer have such hands as KcTx, KcJx, QcJx, QcTx. That's how we "block" them.
Regarding your 2nd point, sure we get dominated quite often but all of these hands will often times have a flushdraw/gutshot/OESD to barrel away. None of these hands (except for QJ) are 3bets if they're ofsuit ones so the playability of suited connectors/one gappers is pretty great regardless of position.
sorry for the trouble again, but I have another question. why the QJo can 3bet oop? does it have the same reason? I mean QJo can block many hands like AQ, KQ, AJ, KJ, QT, JT
well in SB vs BTN scenario you want to be 3betting a linear range of top x % of hands. QJo often times is strong enough to fit that range even though it being ofsuit. It's not about blocker value when you're using a depolarized 3betting range.
Also it blocking those hands is actually a good thing - meaning that he will fold more often vs our 3bet because all those hands you mentioned are pretty clear defends vs 3bets.
First Hand AQs Sb vs Btn. I agree with the Cbet with this hand becouse u have decent Equty and you block a few Kx kombos. But why dont u want to have reasonable x/c range in this spot against Regs? Do u think u get much value by betting K10,QQ;JJ etc? I would like to check/call a good part of my hands like 88-QQ,Kx-KJ,KK to let Villain bet his air. Also i block many Kx in Villains Range with these type of Hands. What do u think?
I prefer to have wider c/calling ranges when either the villain hits the board way better than I do or when I don't have much of a range advantage while having decent board coverage. In this scenario I don't really have many 5x and 7x hands so don't want to split them up that much. I do believe that c/calling as PFR is more of a defensive strategy kinda being inferior overall. I prefer capitalizing on the initiative until I'm told otherwise.
In this scenario I'll still c/call some %age of the time but I'll be generally leaning towards betting the vast majority of my range (i.e. >60% of the time?). So yeah, the hands you proposed are definetely reasonable candidates and if I was to have a wider c/calling range I'd include most of them there.
Think that is an interesting topic. Could u describe a bit deeper what u think the value against a good reg comes from by betting a whole bunch for value? Could u describe your Gameplan on Turn and River? Barreling some blufs as well as kq+ an x/c Turn with 1010-KJ and x/f the rest?
I agree that betting the hole range against a weaker player is more profitable than checking. But against a Reg i think it has more value to let him bet becouse i think he will bet more hands if i check than he will calldown with if i bet.
You seem to think that you'll be facing a bet at a high frequency once you check to the villain - this isn't really the board that people will bluff/semi-bluff that often nor (I do believe) will vbet that thin. There's really no protection needed for hands like TT/JJ in villain's shoes nor can he represent that many value hands (I expect people to x/b quite a bit of TPs on such board).
There are however a lot of hands that can improve on various turns so kinda letting the villain to x/b all of those hands (i.e. every single random bdfd hand) ain't that great.
Regarding turn and river gameplan, yeh it's roughly what you described.
hi great vid 21.00 min u check turn J8dd J J 9 7 board would it not be better to put an inducing bet into the pot here all the time for the reason that your opponent wont always have nuts flush draw here or Jx and your simply giving a free card
Jx hands i've got are far from majority of my entire range so really why would I want to induce the villain when I don't have strong enough hands to bluff-catch afterwards?
at 25 min of video you said his play is bad. Would you raise the flop? I would do that with the kj suited but on the turn as played you prefer a call here? I guess calling is ok but do you ever consider folding on the turn with the kj suited?
Hey, I'm not sure I understood everything. I would never raise KJ with fd on either flop or turn. I don't see any point in doing anything else but calling - you don't really have a value raise while it still has a lot of equity and potential bluff-catching potential on certain run outs.
I have seen a few videos on this and other sites and think your video is the best I've probably ever seen. Cannot recall having such a positive response to a video. I am particularly impressed with how you took a very common situation in NL and ran through every flop texture/run-out you could find, and also how you have some humility regarding your in-game "mistakes".
One think I would like to add re: your AQ in the first example; this may not be the case in the games you are playing, but I find my opponents very unlikely to call me down on two streets on such a dry board without hands they are willing to call a big bet on the river. It actually has a lot of value to check that river, even with a hand as "weak" as AQ because you are beating all A'high hero calling by your opponent, and many times opponent will not bet a random draw that misses given how much strength you have shown in the hand. So basically your hand will win at show down a fair amount of the time if you just check. But if you shove, you get those hands to fold and basically cannot get any other hand your opponent was playing to fold.
I'm very glad to hear such a positive response, thanks!
I think you're strongly overestimating the amount of SDV AQ holds by the river. I'd say that we're going to win about 0% of the time if we check. I'm not sure what sort of A-highs you have in mind that we beat OTR cause I personally can't spot a single one.
Also villain calling 2 streets with 7x hand/99/TT/JJ is pretty std. on such turn - they'll almost allways win vs my bluffs because they don't have great equity as well as have some room to improve vs my most likely value hands which are 1pair type of hands.
Hi, Jonas, nice video! I have a question about the hand J8d. If He bets not pot on the river but smth like 50-60% of the pot - does this sizing possible for good reg in this spot? And if he does it would u XR him or just XC?
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awesome vid. Definitely enjoy the tough 3bpots OOP. Such an needed topic of discussion. Agreed with all of your explanations, the only hand I thought might be questionable was AQhh. I think just bet betting or check raising might be better than check calling with that hand. I tend not to XR many flops, after giving up the lead in 3b pots(although maybe that will be trendy soon) so I would lean towards bet betting. Even vs made hands we have a ton of equity, are ahead of some hands that are getting it in. Just seems too strong to play passively and check call flop. Dont we get barreled off the best hands in some brick brick board runouts?
Well my response would be pretty much the exact same one I provided in the video.
A few maybe additional points:
1. Yes, we get barreled off the best hand ocasionally. What does it change though really? I've already said we can't tripple barrel as a bluff anyway. I.e. If villain is holding QJ (the most frequent barreling hand in his shoes once checked to him) - he will win the hand 100% of the time if the turn and river are bricks no matter what action we choose on the flop.
2. I think you may be a lot more right when it's a SB vs CO situation. Like now if we c/call both AQhh and AKhh as well as AThh (not 100% sure how this hand plays better) and JThh (very clear c/call for me) we're kind of left with just a few combos of flushdraws that we barrel away. This seems like a mistake I made when creating this video. I fairly often one sadly, I tend to treat CO as BTN too often. However without going in-depth on my own ranges I can't really say whether everything I said in this paragraph becomes an actual issue in my gameplan. Furthermore I said that Im using a mixed strat and both AK/AQ are c/calls about half of the time so basically in the end we only lose like 1 combo of flushdraw in our cbetting range which I believe can't be an issue nor exploitable in any way.
Thanks for the response Jonas. I think seeing it in written form helps me to learn as well, much appreciated.
Nice vid Jonas...waiting for next one on 3betted oop...maybe with some bluffhands
This wasn't a several part vid. At least I didn't intend on creating more on this topic. I guess I could if more people show interest in it as I still haven't decided what's my next vid going to be.
nice vid.
future video idea: 3bet pots after calling a 3bet OOP
22:00 calling 2bb seems worse than 3betting.
yeah I would love a video were we calls opponents 3bets oop and IP
I dont think I will be able to find enough interesting spots when we're OOP. My database was recently cleared up a bit and it's not such a high occurance spot overall. IP is obviously very doable and I might just do that.
very nice vid! maybe you can do it IP, but if you have some OOP hands you can just add it as well, would be very nice too :) ty
Thanks for the video! In the AQhh hand, why don't you consider check-raising the flop? That way you make his air and perhaps other hands fold and you get it in against his one pair hands as a favorite or coin flip. (But perhaps I'm thinking this because I play MTTs/SNGs and I don't play cash.)
Why would I want him to fold his air hands?
How am I going to balance this without losing too many precious hands in my cbetting range? Having a c/raising range is all fine and good but it has its own costs like significantly weakening my cbetting range.
I think we're often gonna get called by his 1 pair hands leaving us in an awkward spot OTT where nothing better folds nor anything worse calls yet having only a pot sized bet left. Our equity does drop signifcantly on blank turns and on heart turns I dont think we're getting paid by his one pair hands. Now on the other hand if he bets the flop, turn comes a heart and goes check check then I dont think he's ever folding to a river lead when he's holding a flopped 1 pair hand. Sort of even outs in terms of value gained.
Thanx for the video Jonas! Hope to see more of this kind of video.
3bet pots after calling a 3bet OOP and IP for me sound perfect.
Hey man this is awesome! Please make a part 2 :)
On the first hand if we have a value range of something like AK KQ K5s 77 55 22 and 75s 64s that's only about 51 combos if he doesn't have a K. If he does have a K then we only have about 44. Assuming he does have a K and we're betting 3/4 pot on the river then we can only have about 16 bluff combos. So the question is whether we should barrel off the 16 combos of AQ or something like AQs AJs QJs JTs. I guess it comes down to whether or not we want to be barreling QJs JTs on the turn or not. On the offsuit turn I think we are better off with the 16 combos of AQ so we block KQ and sometimes have 3 outs. When the turn is suited, though, maybe we should switch to the sixteen combos of AQs AJs JTs QJs so all flushes will be in our range if the flush completes on the river.
"I guess it comes down to whether or not we want to be barreling QJs JTs on the turn or not. On the offsuit turn I think we are better off with the 16 combos of AQ so we block KQ and sometimes have 3 outs. "
I'm really not sure what you're asking me but this seems pretty close to what I said in the vid. Basically the reason why I wanted to double AQ hands rather than TJ QJ (which have better potential as tripple barrels) is because it's not drawing dead or at least not drawing dead as often as TJ QJ hands are.
Id also stay away from 3betting K5s 75s 64s. 22 is a bit too loose for me vs most as well.
great vid, i would like to hear more interesting spots where you use blockers in your hand (that block parts of villains value or air range) to dictate your play. A video on that would be great.
hi jonas, very nice video. You open in my mind new solutions how to play the 3betted pot oOP. I'd like very well how you play the hands AhQh and J8s, but i have a doubt when you play AhTh.
when i saw the hand, at turn villain check in position. I suppose he holding showdown values hand, like a pair 88 99 TT or a straight, or a pair with a gutshot, like 78s, 68s, but i trust all bluffs he bets turn and not check behind. When he bets river, his range is strong, and your fold equity is too small for try the bluff. Do you agree?
Sorry for the bad english, i am studing it.
Hi, Jonas
in the first hand, I have some question about it:
1. If we have the QJ or QT as you said in the video, how to block the BTN's range like KQ KJ or KT? I m not full understand of this point
2. As I know, use hands like QJs QTs KJs to 3betting resteal from the SB or BB, it seems like our hands will fall behind the opponents always if we hit a pair on the flop. because the opponents will have the hand like AQ AJ AT. Can you give me any idea about this?
I'm really sorry but I don't understand anything you're trying to ask me. Could you please try to re-phrase it?
in the first hand, you said if our hands like QJ or QT, we can block villain's hands like KQ KJ ot KT. I am not understand at this. how can we block villain's range like that? could you please tell me why?
in my experience, if we three betting the hands like QJ QT JT OOP, our hands seems like always fall behind the villain's when we hit a pair on the flop. Because villain will call the 3betting like AQ, AJ or AT.
Well if you're holding KcQc then villain can no longer have such hands as KcTx, KcJx, QcJx, QcTx. That's how we "block" them.
Regarding your 2nd point, sure we get dominated quite often but all of these hands will often times have a flushdraw/gutshot/OESD to barrel away. None of these hands (except for QJ) are 3bets if they're ofsuit ones so the playability of suited connectors/one gappers is pretty great regardless of position.
wow, this is really helpful.
sorry for the trouble again, but I have another question. why the QJo can 3bet oop? does it have the same reason? I mean QJo can block many hands like AQ, KQ, AJ, KJ, QT, JT
well in SB vs BTN scenario you want to be 3betting a linear range of top x % of hands. QJo often times is strong enough to fit that range even though it being ofsuit. It's not about blocker value when you're using a depolarized 3betting range.
Also it blocking those hands is actually a good thing - meaning that he will fold more often vs our 3bet because all those hands you mentioned are pretty clear defends vs 3bets.
thanks
look forward your next video:)
First Hand AQs Sb vs Btn. I agree with the Cbet with this hand becouse u have decent Equty and you block a few Kx kombos. But why dont u want to have reasonable x/c range in this spot against Regs? Do u think u get much value by betting K10,QQ;JJ etc? I would like to check/call a good part of my hands like 88-QQ,Kx-KJ,KK to let Villain bet his air. Also i block many Kx in Villains Range with these type of Hands. What do u think?
I prefer to have wider c/calling ranges when either the villain hits the board way better than I do or when I don't have much of a range advantage while having decent board coverage. In this scenario I don't really have many 5x and 7x hands so don't want to split them up that much. I do believe that c/calling as PFR is more of a defensive strategy kinda being inferior overall. I prefer capitalizing on the initiative until I'm told otherwise.
In this scenario I'll still c/call some %age of the time but I'll be generally leaning towards betting the vast majority of my range (i.e. >60% of the time?). So yeah, the hands you proposed are definetely reasonable candidates and if I was to have a wider c/calling range I'd include most of them there.
Think that is an interesting topic. Could u describe a bit deeper what u think the value against a good reg comes from by betting a whole bunch for value? Could u describe your Gameplan on Turn and River? Barreling some blufs as well as kq+ an x/c Turn with 1010-KJ and x/f the rest?
I agree that betting the hole range against a weaker player is more profitable than checking. But against a Reg i think it has more value to let him bet becouse i think he will bet more hands if i check than he will calldown with if i bet.
You seem to think that you'll be facing a bet at a high frequency once you check to the villain - this isn't really the board that people will bluff/semi-bluff that often nor (I do believe) will vbet that thin. There's really no protection needed for hands like TT/JJ in villain's shoes nor can he represent that many value hands (I expect people to x/b quite a bit of TPs on such board).
There are however a lot of hands that can improve on various turns so kinda letting the villain to x/b all of those hands (i.e. every single random bdfd hand) ain't that great.
Regarding turn and river gameplan, yeh it's roughly what you described.
hi great vid 21.00 min u check turn J8dd J J 9 7 board would it not be better to put an inducing bet into the pot here all the time for the reason that your opponent wont always have nuts flush draw here or Jx and your simply giving a free card
Jx hands i've got are far from majority of my entire range so really why would I want to induce the villain when I don't have strong enough hands to bluff-catch afterwards?
at 25 min of video you said his play is bad. Would you raise the flop? I would do that with the kj suited but on the turn as played you prefer a call here? I guess calling is ok but do you ever consider folding on the turn with the kj suited?
Hey, I'm not sure I understood everything. I would never raise KJ with fd on either flop or turn. I don't see any point in doing anything else but calling - you don't really have a value raise while it still has a lot of equity and potential bluff-catching potential on certain run outs.
Jonas,
I have seen a few videos on this and other sites and think your video is the best I've probably ever seen. Cannot recall having such a positive response to a video. I am particularly impressed with how you took a very common situation in NL and ran through every flop texture/run-out you could find, and also how you have some humility regarding your in-game "mistakes".
One think I would like to add re: your AQ in the first example; this may not be the case in the games you are playing, but I find my opponents very unlikely to call me down on two streets on such a dry board without hands they are willing to call a big bet on the river. It actually has a lot of value to check that river, even with a hand as "weak" as AQ because you are beating all A'high hero calling by your opponent, and many times opponent will not bet a random draw that misses given how much strength you have shown in the hand. So basically your hand will win at show down a fair amount of the time if you just check. But if you shove, you get those hands to fold and basically cannot get any other hand your opponent was playing to fold.
Keep up the great videos!
I'm very glad to hear such a positive response, thanks!
I think you're strongly overestimating the amount of SDV AQ holds by the river. I'd say that we're going to win about 0% of the time if we check. I'm not sure what sort of A-highs you have in mind that we beat OTR cause I personally can't spot a single one.
Also villain calling 2 streets with 7x hand/99/TT/JJ is pretty std. on such turn - they'll almost allways win vs my bluffs because they don't have great equity as well as have some room to improve vs my most likely value hands which are 1pair type of hands.
Thanks for the video Jonas, just what i needed.
Hi, Jonas, nice video! I have a question about the hand J8d. If He bets not pot on the river but smth like 50-60% of the pot - does this sizing possible for good reg in this spot? And if he does it would u XR him or just XC?
I don't think you'll ever see anyone betting less than AI in this situation. The ~50% PSB would be so weird for me that I don't even know what I'd do.
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