2 Table $1/$2 Zoom PLO Live Session
Posted by Phil Galfond
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12:24 u 3bet j475 double from the bb button calls flop comes A46 w fd and you cbet.
1. I'am playing zoom 1/2 and in villain shoes a play i consider good is that i small raise flop like this versus people who 3bet more than 10%. Do you think its good to have a hand like villain's in my raising range because of the immediate folding equity i have?
2. Sorry for speaking hypothetically but in the same hand do you think having hands in my flop raising value range like A678 or A453 or Axxx(w nfd) is bad overall?
obv i wouldn't do that to someone who 3bets <6
In the actual hand, I checked, so you mean if I'd have cbet?
With his wrap+fd, there aren't many "wrong" ways to play it, as long as you don't fold. I think raising this flop to induce a bluff 3bet and jam over it is a good option. You also are in plenty fine shape against AAxx no flush draw, and AAxx with flush draw isn't even THAT bad (almost absolute worst case).
When you look at a players 3b %, it's really important to figure out what kind of hands he's 3betting-
Some people 3bet AAxx, good KKxx, and then lots of rundown hands. Against someone like that, you have a ton of fold equity raising this flop.
Others will 3bet more linear high card hands, AAxx, KKxx, AKQx, AKJx, AKTx, AQJx. Against that range, you have almost no fold equity on an Ace high flop.
Both players could be 3betting similar ranges from a % standpoint, yet your adjustment should be completely different.
As far as what hands to value raise, again, it depends on the above.
Against a polarized range, there's not a ton of sense in raising your 2pr for value, as he so often has top set or air.
Against a high card range, there's a ton of value in getting it in on the flop, before he improves or a scare card hits that kills your action.
I would give a lot of money to hear the thought process of some of the player pool when MrSweets pops up on the table......on a serious note; do you think that would influence how people play?
"fml, he is goin to take all my monies" :D
phil,
when you have no time bank in zoom you can just sit out then sit back in then you get new time bank
Phil, something I've noticed about your play in these smaller stakes games is that you tend to favor small and frequent c-bets over larger and slightly less frequent c-bets, which I often see you making playing higher. What's your reasoning behind this?
When playing high, does it have more to do with a) protecting your equity against tougher opponents by checking back slightly more and b) denying your opponent good enough pot odds to peel with certain hands you'd like to see him just fold by sizing larger?
And lower, because people tend to play more face up/straight forward, you can bet more frequently expecting to get played back at less overall, as well as give your self immediately profitable c-bets? Is this close and am I missing anything substantial here?
Very good observation! I think that people at smaller stakes under-defend against smaller bets, and that they don't attack them nearly enough. At higher stakes, there are hands that I'd much prefer to bet larger with, and there are more hands I need to check (since they won't under-defend), so the hands that I would prefer to bet smaller with, I just put in one of those two ranges, rather than risk getting exploited by tough regs attacking my smaller sizing.
Phil, do you have any idea of what an achievable WR in those games long-term might be, especially given the relatively high rake still, even at 1/2 ?
Unfortunately, I have no idea. I only have any idea of winrates at higher stakes. How much in terms of bb/100 does the rake at 1/2 account for, roughly? And how much at say, 25/50?
If rake were proportional, I'd guess that 10bb/100 is possible in those games (but you'd likely be moving up if you can achieve that).
Rake at 1/2 is about 6bb/100 IIRC.
Edit: Just thinking about this a little more, that means almost nobody is winning right? Obviously some people are but if 10bb/100 is the maximum win rate possible, and id say 1/2 rake is probably 4-5bb/100 more than high stakes rake (some high stakes reg could provide this info), then the maximum people can achieve is 4-5bb/100. Thats the biggest winners. The biggest winners in a game are probably the top 5-10% of regs, are the other 90-95% of regs just grinding out rakeback at 1/2 now?
Nice pace in the video.
Great video, I think you are taking good care of essential customers who study/work and have only time to watch few videos once and a while (poker players always think its about the money but time is a reason to be essential subscriber too). Also very good pace, I think zoom is very useful for videos.
In the last hand villain quite often has a rundown (like he did now) and he could bet mid two pair (9Txx) for thin value vs good player who checked the turn with most likely a bare ace or a one pair draw. Just feels that there are more possibilities to be beat than what you went through in your (short) analysis and it is not necessarily very polarised.
Thanks again for great work, really look forward videos like this.
Thank you for appreciating what I'm trying to do for our essential customers! Since I only get 1 video a month to them, I have tended to stretch it out closer to 1hr, and I try my best to deliver as much content as I can in that time.
As far as the hand... I assumed he wouldn't VB T9, and I still feel that it's likely true. That said, I can't be sure, and there certainly are players who would vb weak two pair there.
If there are any types of videos you prefer or dislike, let me know!
34:37 seems like a call with top two.... you already identified him as a capable opponent, who has shown good aggression in the few hands we've seen with him. I expect he is barreling every time he has a turned flush draw, and while a lot of those hands will be showing down rather that bluffing this river, any kind of middling rundown can get to this river with weak one pair and be bluffing. Not to mention, you are really near the top of your range.
Yeah, I feel like my fold was very questionable. I felt like he had it at the time, but you're definitely right that I'm towards the top of my range and that there are plenty of missed draws.
I think the spot depends greatly on his CO opening range (which we don't know), since a tight opening range has very few air hands on this board. A range that includes more single suited weak rundowns and single/double suited disconnected cards (AT73ds type hands) will end up with more air. If I knew he had a tight range pre, I'd have been confident in the fold. As is, I have no idea, and I certainly think my fold is exploitable.
Would be awesome to see you play 10 or 25 PLO Phil! It's like the twilight zone. Everything is backwards, nothing makes any sense at all. Uncertain educational value, but entertainment value would be great :)
Yep - as long as it's posted on here first so we can all
1) Get out of the way :-)
2) Watch!
Interesting vid.
The major point I got from this vid is that when playing with a weak field, it is a tremendous asset to play bad hands well. I think for the simple reason that you get to play more hands against weaker apponentents. Anyone agree?
How many hands you get to play depends more on how they respond preflop and on the flop imo. If they overfold either of those streets it's easy. If they don't fold (even when weak) then you kinda have to make a hand and you'll need to play slightly stronger hands. Though if you know (like Phil said in the video) that they arrive on the flop with too weak a range you can play turns aggressively and it's going to be hard for them to do much about it. So there are many things to consider. I adapt my own play to the specific opponent(s) in the hand in every hand, and I think that's the way to go.
That said, playing weak hands comfortably both in and out of position (and against both good and bad opponents) has improved my own game a lot. Spending some of your time playing HU is a great way to practice this.
Jonna answered this question well.
In a game which plays too weak-tight, you can play more hands and play them aggressively. If the game is soft because everyone is too loose/agg, you need to tighten up significantly.
When I first started playing PLO at high stakes, the games played very loose and people overvalued hands greatly. I decided to play extremely tight to exploit it, which is why I think my "default" game is a tight one. I've had to work hard to break out of that mentality as I enter different types of games.
*PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS PHIL*
You say to defend weaker hands from the blinds in zoom. What are the weakest pairs you are defending from the SB and from the BB vs a LP raise and no other callers yet?
I get into this spot a ton at 1/2 Zoom and I don't want to be folding too tight but I also don't want to spew off with hands that don't flop well.
Thanks!
Tough to categorize hands by pair strength, as so much else is involved, and because pairs aren't a huge chunk of your range.
If I have AK55ds, I'm certainly playing it, but K552ss I'm certainly not. I doubt there are many TT hands I'd fold from the BB to a minraise, but plenty I'd fold to a 3x.
It just really depends on the connectivity of the rest of your hand. 9887ds is a much better hand than KK73r at 100bb+.
Hey Phil, you mentioned about the adjustments in zoom plo
compared to deep ante games where people are overfolding (both preflop and postflop) and overall
weaker fields (calling/folding/bluffing incorrectly). It seems like zoom poker is more similar to the live field and that people are more passive.
So my question is that what adjustments do you make when you are playing a 9max/8max full ring plo game? Do you suggest taking a more aggressive approach by isolating alot 3b/4betting in position (i.e. do you 3bet kk89ds because so often people are raising tight ranges utg/utg+1 or "the callers who called the original raise" are just calling with aces so they can repot squeeze when it gets back to them) or just playing a bunch of good multiway hands and only 3betting rundowns or something like that?
Tough question. I've found that even though many live games play too passively, it's rare to get an EP preflop raise through the field. Most pots end up 3-6 way, from my experience.
Unfortunately, you just need to play tight in a lineup like this, and when you're deep, definitely isolate the players you'd like to play pots with, even if their range is ahead of your hand (as long as your hand is playable).
If people are opening very tight, and you aren't deep enough to be building huge pots v AAxx, then you just need to play good multiway hands, as most of your value will come from hand over hand or barreling with strong semibluffs. Honestly, 9 handed live PLO can turn into a very boring grind in my experience :(
25:09
You have KQQx on some K88tt - x - 8 board, and he checks back TTxx pretty quickly. Would you like a valuebet here? Don't you think thats too light (in general), or is it a balance-thing, where him valuebetting (say TT+) will allow him to also bluff non-paired hands more often.
Would you call with 66-99 (that you somehow had gotten to the river with, there? (lets say maybe with a nutflushdraw)
I have to say that your impression of the field at 1-2zoom might not be entirely correct, Phil. There are a lot of decent aggressive regs who 3 bet a lot ip, raise flops that are bad for raiser's range, shove semibluffs and generally play fairly tough. However, when they see that "MrSweets28" is their opponent, they turn into scared money. (I know I have this leak myself, as I've recently been taking shots at 1k and 2kplo and I get a little intimidated playing against guys who I know play 100-200 and higher on a regular basis)
meh, still running twice on RIO *trollface.
great vid, though =)
voting for 0.5\1 regular tables for next month vid
Hey phil, loved the video
You touched on how you believe that players should open more hands from the CO & BTN.... Vs the "general" zoom population, what would you consider to be good RFI stats from the CO & BTN when using a 2.5bb open raise sizing?
My current RFI from CO is 33 & BTN is 53, I feel that both of these could be increased though I am not sure what %s I should eventually be aiming for.
Hope u find the time to reply to this, I love your videos :)
I laughed when I saw [x] Run It Twice :D
Nice video Phil. Thank you
Want to say that I really enjoyed this video and all of the others (videos from the essential coaches) of course. The PLO content is one of the main reasons I chose to sign up for this site and it does not disappoint.
Towards the end of the video Phil starts talking about analyzing boards that don't hit our opponents ranges very hard and that there is a lot to gain in these spots. I know in his previous videos he talks about lockdown boards where the only strong hand our opponent can have is the nuts and we should be attacking here. To me these are monotone boards, low paired boards and three straight boards. I do find though at lower limits (especially the micros where I play) that on three straight boards people never tend to fold their pair plus straight draw types of hands even with a lot of pressure. I think this is incorrect on their part, however this must mean that we need to adjust and either not attack these boards without minimum equity compared to the pair+SD range, or only value betting these boards. I lean towards value betting only because pair+SD is going to be the bottom of their range and I am fearful of barreling off with the second best hand when they are not at the bottom of their range. I don't know if my view is skewed by playing so many multiway pots at lower limits meaning I should only be attacking in heads-up on these flops.
Lower paired boards tend to suffer some of the same fate in some scenarios where I don't find opponents folding too many overpairs on the flop. Although in these scenarios I find it difficult to decide between barreling off to make them fold to the pressure or just giving up and only value betting in these scenarios as well.
Also, not to diverge from the topic too much, but watching phil play a wider range (especially from the blinds) in this video makes me question how wide i should be playing myself. I do play at the micros and know I am not even close to being as good as phil. Most of the reading I have done advocates playing a fairly tight nutty range in and out of position. I have mostly been raising/3betting my 8xxx+ at least single suited good and premium rundowns. I have been limping behind my lower speculative rundowns (not too low usually 6xxx+) as well as my suited aces with rundowns and bad kings. And opening mostly two good hold'em hands on the button and fairly wide in the CO if i think the button is tight. I really have only been defending from the blinds my nuttiest hands and KKxx in multiway pots and 3betting double suited broadway rundowns depending on how many players are in the pot. Do I need to loosen up these ranges? are they too static?
Anyhow, sorry for the long post I just wanted to get my thoughts out there and hopefully get corrected if I am wrong (I wrote so much there must be something wrong in there). Please feel free to critique/comment. I am new around here so please also tell me if this is the wrong place for this post I just figured most of it related to topics in the video and wanted to discuss.
If you made it this far thanks for reading!
Do you think your turn size is best as an exploitative play @31:30?
Phil,
at 9:09 you lead the R for value, when you hit your flush, saying that you hope he has 2 pair...and you lead kinda big ~80%POT.
Now, I wouldn't normally question your decisions, but here is what I think:
- your range for c/c twice oop, seems very FD-heavy.
- there aren't many other draws you could have had, other than a Qxxxcc(backdoor FD on T) and turn this into bluff or something like AQ65 (I guess ds, that picked OESD on the T)
- if you have a made hand (like 2 pair, set, etc) - it seems much more likely that you check and evaluate on the R (since it wouldn't make much sense to bet it yourself)
- so, overall your hand seems a lot like a flush, and your size a lot like a high flush(mostly NF)
- and it seems with that size (Since you don't really have many bluffs) you just hope that either he has a weaker flush and will call, or he has the Ad and shoves as a bluff(and do you call or fold then?)
So, overall, wouldn't then be better to bet smaller, since you don't have many bluffs and it will be hard for him to hero-call against a big bet and against a strong(value heavy) range? Wouldn't 1/2xpot or even 1/3xpot be more profitable in this exact spot? Or am I missing something here?
Thanks!
I have a serious question about "min-raise" from button.At hu games you always open 3x.What is the true differnce?Because i think we open 3x when we have the button to play biggest pots in position.
I mean is really too big "thing" to steal the blinds with 0,90x less vs play the hand as biggest with position?
First of all i dont think nobody fold at bb cause the open raise is bigger.If i decide to play my hand at blinds i will not see the open raise (just me?).So when i open 3.5x i wil steal the blinds the same times that i steal with 2x plus that i will take back less 3bets(just me?).If i take 3bet its no problem i will happy call with 90% of my hands (maybe more like 95%).
A good for me plan is to open like 2.5x from utg because our ranges is propably tough and in this situation with 3x maybe we discourage hands that we want to play against us plus that we play many times oop and too much times oop against 3bets.
(sorry for my english)
Phil, big fan of your videos. I will say I wish your PLO coaches on this site for essential talked more about hypothetical situations like you do. Too much playing, not enough coaching or talking about "what if" scenarios. Love your site (new subscriber). I have recently switched from live NL 2/5 to live PLO 1/2/5 so if we had legal online poker in the US I'm sure I would crush and get the Elite plan, but I just can't afford it so that's why I'm offering a slight criticism of your essential coaches. Great poker players and great teachers are often two different things. Thanks again!
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