50 - KK in awkward spot

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50 - KK in awkward spot

http://weaktight.com/6585180


Villan is a tough reg - usually I just bet these spots at 50 given I won't get played back at, but this villan is tough and I'm not sure how to proceed....villan knows this board rarely hits my range so he can abuse me pretty hard and b/f or b/c sound pretty bad.....x/c has merit but with his barreling frequencies will not be fun - what are your thoughts?

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SatayIsAwesome 11 years ago

What happened on flop? 

this is good timing  because
http://www.runitonce.com/plo/plo50z-naked-aa-on-low-board-140bb-deep/

this is a thread dealing with a similar situation..

ZenFish 11 years ago

The work we did in the previous thread is relevant, but we need to be aware of the differences, too:

- SPR is higher
- We're HU and OOP against a tough reg
- This board is more coordinated (a straight, flush draw, and various straight draws) 
- Our hand is weaker (KK on low/wet board << AA on low/dry board)
- Our high-card heavy UTG range don't represent well the hands that matter most (nut straight and strong, nutty draws)

In the previous hand, we were pretty sure we were up against two tight ranges that totally missed the board. Given the circumstances, we expected the opposition to play tightly and straightforwardly. And with lower SPR, comes lower stackoff requirements. 

Here we're OOP against a single tough player on a board that misses our range, and it's obvious. SPR and stackoff requirements are high. Therefore it's a good one for him to attack in position. His preflop calling range can credibly represent strong flopped hands and hands that can become strong. When SPR is higher, these hands matter more.

We absolutely can't bet and shrug-stack-off when he raises. We can't bet-call either. We're very unhappy when he just calls. And we probably don't want to c-bet this dry overpair in the first place (if we do, it's effectively a pure bluff). Because it's a good situation for him to attack us, and we are defenseless when he does.

If you check, check-fold. Playing a nothing hand passively over three streets OOP vs a good reg is a hopeless proposition.


SatayIsAwesome 11 years ago

um, yeah when i first went over the AAxx hand i didnt like the cbet, after the info that was shown i was ok with the Cbet....

I'm getting a bit confused, we were against 2 ranges with AAxx, here were against 1 range, so even if the other 2 ranges are tighter doesnt that mean we're in a similar hand strength position, i think the deciding factor for me was us holding a 3,  

Plus i instantly give a capped range to most btn's that dont 3bet, i just dont see how they have AAxx..Is this wrong? if not we're basically playing the nut over pair (minus our kicker problem that is....)

I agree with what you said about playing passively is bad, so with this hand with a straight blocker, wouldnt our best play be to turn it into a bluff by bet/folding flop, then on all non heart turns bet/fold....if we bet and vill flats (i dont know how often that happens) then his range is what mostly Fd's but if he raises (which could be often) we're dead....

also with the (KK on low/wet board << AA on low/dry board)...isnt is slightly better that we can bet and get value from Fd's?

the more i go through these hands the more i think i play badly...lol oh well some of us have to i guess

ZenFish 11 years ago

When he doesn't 3-bet, his range becomes more weighted towards low cards. The fact that he is good and aggressive means he will contest pots. That is fine with us when we actually have a hand, but here we don't. 

His range is not capped just because he rarely has AA. He can represent hands that matter (naked AA doesn't matter much here), there are more of these hands on this flop than on the 7 4 2 rainbow flop, and in a single-raised pot he has leverage to push us around. We can't expect him to play an honest raise/fold game here. We can expect him to play a tough raise & float a lot game. He'll try to force us into making tough turn and river decisions out of position.

We simply can't defend against that. If we bet-fold he wins. If we bet-call, he can push us around on future streets. If we bet-get-it-in, he will fold when he's bluffing weak, and crush us when he stacks off (= suicidal for us).

Since we expect him to use his positional advantage/leverage a lot, and since we happen to be defenseless when he does, a simple and valid solution is to just check-fold. Because you have a weak hand with high SPR OOP against a tough player, and the board will just get uglier and uglier for you. He knows that your tight range rarely hits this board well enough to stand a raise or to bet more than once (whereas on the 7 4 2 board with low SPR, stackoff requirements were lower). No shame in giving up. 

If you bet here, you are pure-bluffing since you can't continue against a raise, and you have to check-fold the vast majority of turns when he calls. Just being aware of that, will save you a lot of trouble, whether you c-bet or not.

_____________________________________________________________________________

also with the (KK on low/wet board << AA on low/dry board)...isnt is slightly better that we can bet and get value from Fd's?

If you bet and a draw calls behind you, are you happy? What is your plan for the next two streets when the board gets uglier and uglier and you have no idea what improved him and what didn't? 


ZenFish 11 years ago

For those who are not aware how weak dry overpairs are on such boards, let's look at equities vs our opponents' total ranges. This doesn't tell us anything about EV, but it provides a picture of where we stand, and what is likely to happen in the future.

KK93 on 6 4 2 two-tone

We are 46% against a random hand (24% against two random hands). Giving Villain a $FI30!$3b6i preflop range, we are 57% against his whole range (59% vs a tighter $FI20!$3b4i range). But he has position with high SPR, three streets to play, we have poor visibility, and we don't have outs. When the pot grows, we are donating to him.

AAKT on 7 4 2 rainbow

http://www.runitonce.com/plo/plo50z-naked-aa-on-low-board-140bb-deep/

We are 57% against a random hand. 35% (slight favorite 3-way) against two random hands. And 52%(!) 3-way against the two tight preflop ranges we assumed we were up against ($fi120!$3b6i and $fi20!$3b6o). Since SPR is low, and we don't do horribly against a reasonable stackoff-range, we simply bet, and roll the dice on the rare occasions that one of them shoves.

How the professionals deal with this

See this similar PokerJuice case study I did for one of Phil's dry-overpair video hands:

Case study 4: Phil Galfond 3-bet pot - Feb 28 2014

Here Phil plays a dry overpair on 6 4 2 rainbow, very deep against a tough player. He has a slight Hand vs Range advantage on the flop, but he still check-folds. The analysis discusses why this has to be done.


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