Oh yeah and naturally 3 bet wider for value and 3bet bluff less. All in all I suspect our game to become unbalanced but that probably doesnt matter since the opposition is so bad? And yes many players were extremely bad. Surprised actually. Made a nice winning despite only playing for 4h yesterday.

I'd like to know this as well. I pretty much quit live poker because these guys are so unbelievably bad that I'm only getting annoyed by it, thus playing badly as well.

Hey man, I play live as well and you almost have to throw out all the things you know about balancing your range.  Being polarized in most live games is no big deal.  The value of balance is extremely diminished as the skill level of your opponents drops.  Live players are generally weaker and will either pay you off way too light, or always give you too much credit.  Value bet thin, build pots in position, and make your raises proportionately larger.  Don't worry so much about balance.  I have quite a large sample of hands and hours played. 

Thanks for the replies. I guess the adjustments are pretty obvious. Just one last question, do you guys also start implementing a limping strategy preflop? Like I said it's not great fun having to rise a hand like 77 to 6bbs and get called by 5 players and the. Have to play it OOP. I guess what has me confused still is how do we play optimally in EP. 

Oh yean and one more thing. What is a reasonable winrate live? I've logged my 10 sessions or so far and had about 10bb/h. I'm guessing this in run good and the tru winrate is much lower but then again I get uncertain since the player quality is just sooooo awful. Honestly never ever seen plays like I've seen live.

Thanks again..

Raising 44-77 in EP is standard IMO at these stakes, if you get 5 callers and the flop comes A103r just c/f there is no reason to get creative and try to make someone fold Ax they WILL NOT but if you flop a set on A73r go for 3 streets! No will put you on a set in that spot because they will limp with 77 and then call a raise OOP  so they would expect you to do the same.(most of the time)

Regarding a limping range hmmmm I might over limp IP with small PP and only if there a few limpers in front of me, if there is only 1 and I have position I will always raise.[ I really don't like limping " good enough to play good enough to raise" is my motto ;-).]

You should really try to construct a 3bet/ raising and calling range more than a limping range, even in a live setting this is very important,( I don't know where you're from but around me live mid stakes got a bit tougher after Black Friday), flatting AA IP in a 3bet pot is not a bad idea because every one would expect you to 4bet always and will stack off incorrectly on small flops with over pairs.(just and idea)

And don't worry about your win rate for now, just play your best and get back to your hourly in about a month or two of playing live.

But here are some examples

Buddy of mine plays 1/2 and averages $25 an hr.

Another one plays 2/5 and averages $60-$75 an hr. 

Good Luck.......!!!

I dont have much experience playing live but when I ve been to vegas I experienced somewhat similar things. What I did is instead of having a limp range and a raise range is I had a minraise range and a larger raise range. I found that if I limped someone would raise to like 5x or more and it would be pretty :(. However if I minraised I still got to see the flop for the price that I wanted and no one would 3 bet me. Seemed like a good way to adjust to their donkery.

The same thing actually struck my mind today WM2K. Wy not try minraising and see how they react. Good advice, going to try that next time. 

Edichka1, thanks for the reply. I think you are generally correct about not having a limping range but I do think there are some things that could favor a limping range in games like this. It's probably not a big issue though either way.  

Expected hourly will vary depending on rake and stuff.  Most of my sessions are logged at 2-5 and 1-2 and the rake is 10-15.  Yea, I know, really high rake, but the closest casino is like 150 miles from me.  Over that sample I have realized an hourly of around 23$ an hour.  The average stack in most of the games I play is under 500.  The standard deviation is about 10x my winrate.  I have read a lot and seems edichkals winrates at 1-2 and 2-5 are pretty spot on, but the 2-5 winrate seems a bit high unless the game is always played super deep.

I don't see why you would adjust to these games by having a limping range.  Why the hell would you ever limp / raise kings (This is a HUGE live giveaway, the majority of people who do this in live games often have aces or kings and it's just so freakin obvious I have no idea why anyone would take this strategy).  You're just going to get people to fold a shit load of crap hands.  If one person calls your re-raise, everyone else will too..  Now you're in a huge bloated pot OOP.. great..  Remember the goal is to make money from 3 streets of poker, not to just take it down pre-flop.  If that's your game plan, then I'm kind of worried about how you're doing online.  Nothing should really change about your overall opening strategy.  If people are playing 40+vpip, start opening looser and playing more hands, that would be the correct adjustment, not limping.  If you notice some people who never fold to 3 bets, then start 3betting them more for value and owning them in that regard.  Also, people don't 3bet/4bet bluff enough.  This makes hands like JJ/QQ not as strong as you would otherwise see them.  People don't get 100+bb in with AK/QQ/JJ, therefore, 4betting in live poker often does nothing for you.  However, you should still be 3 bet bluffing in profitable spots (squeezes / bluffs / value) because it's still profitable as fuck.  People generally play fit or fold poker and  you're just printing money by out-playing the opponent.  

WM2K: I don't see how splitting your ranges into two different raising amounts can be good for your game.  You're kind of playing your cards face up then, aren't you?  That's going to be pretty exploitable against someone who pays any sort of attention to the game.  I would strongly recommend against that.  Any time you min-open I'd just 3bet you and there's pretty much nothing you can do.  If you start doing this with your strong hands, then you're losing value in spots where you're supposed to be making a lot more money.  (Opening $10, instead of $20-$30).  This is going to make a huge difference by the time you're v-betting otr.  Normally in a 2/5 game I will open $20-$25 and add $5 for every limper.  This is normally fine because the buy in limit for the games in my area are at 300bbs..


Your major edge in this game is the fact that you are able to make thin value bets in spots where most of the field in live poker just wont do it.  Also, you are able to (or should be able to) put villains on a defined range of hands (because of their narrow 3 bet ranges, raising ranges, etc..)  Therefore, your advantage is you're making them pay in spots where they're going to let you off cheap.  All you're doing by limping / min raising is letting them get off cheaper in spots where you should be making more $$$...  You're pretty much just throwing your edge out the window...

Thanks for that angry rant nma. I see your points and I have answers for them but don't have time now. Will get back to you. 

Didn't mean to sound angry, but looking forward to it!
Probably just a bit surprised in the logic.  You're pretty much taking the same strategies the poor players are using and adding it to your game to combat against them.  Don't fight fire with fire, use water!

Alright nma.

First, I've played over 5 million hands online and never implemented a limping strategy much because of the reasons you point out. That said I don't think it's as big of an issue as you seem to think. There are even some online pro's, like Adrian Milroy here at RIW, who have a limping strategy.

You state that if you are limp/raising everyone one will put me on those hands and fold, well then let's start doing it with some less than optimal hands. You also state that the goal is to make money on 3 streets. I disagree. My goal is to make money, period. If we take a hand like AA and play it 1000 times. Say that we get the money in preflop 500 times and get to play to the river 500 times. Now you get to choose one of these scenarios, which one would you choose? Sure this is an extreme example but the thing is with strong hands we want to build the pot early. If we feel that taking a limp/raising strategy will gain the biggest chance of building the pot then we should use that strategy. Sure it can backfire and everyone may call and no one raise. That's actually what happened in the hand above. I got 3 streets of value vs 55 on a dry board since my opponent said "I couldn't have an overpair since I didn't raise preflop". 

The second and perhaps main reason I see for having a limping strategy is that in this particular game openings were so big and despite that there were so many callers. Let's again take the extreme. Let's say that in some extreme game the standard opening size is 50bb. Stack sizes are 100bb. In such a case we would be extremely crippled in early position preflop if we only had a raising range. In fact we could only raise the very best hands. No way could we be opening things like small suited connectors or small PPs. If we instead have a limping range and people know that we can have AA or KK in that limping range then we may get to see flops for the minimum with a lot of hands that can flop very well. 

Now go back to the live game I was at. This is far from the extreme example but the point is the same. When raise sizes start being very big and there are a lot of callers our range preflop in early position will have to narrow if we only have a raising range. So an adjustment I made at the table was that I implemented a limping range in order to widen my range with hands that can hit very nice. I also thought that it was important to show the table that I was in fact also capable of limping very strong hands so that my limping range wasn't automatically seen as week. 

Also I don't agree about your remark that live players are playing fit or fold poker. That more fits the description of a lot of weakish regs online. Live I think people were more playing call,call,call or fold. Lot's of players that just didn't like folding.

Concerning splitting ones range. I think in a GTO perspective it's probably favorable to split ones range as long as you can balance it. As we said balancing doesn't seem to be as important live and people will probably over adjust if they see you do something that is out of line for them (like limp KK). If I implemented a min raising strategy and saw that there was a good player at the table (like yourself nma) who started raising my min raise every time well then I think you know how I would counter adjust.

"Your major edge in this game is the fact that you are able to make thin value bets in spots where most of the field in live poker just wont do it." That was the best part of your post imo. Totally agree about that. Well said.

Lastly, I'd like to end were I started in that I don't think this preflop discussion is that important really. I can really see things going either ways as long as you remember to balance. 

Thanks for the reply Rob,

In response to your comment on building the pot early by limp / raising, I think you're missing the point completely.  I would like to ask how you would balance your limp / raise range?  Also, I believe you are being very result-oriented by even bringing up the fact that some random dude called you down with pocket 5s because he didn't think you had an over pair.  If you start balancing this range, then you're going to end up in big pots with marginal hands OOP.  I think that in it self is problematic.

You are truly correct when you say the main goal of poker is to make money PERIOD.  However, there is a reason why there are more +ev lines to take.  As in, there are many "good" lines in poker, however, in every single situation, there is always going to be the optimal +ev line.  I don't believe the lines you are taking are going to show you the most profit at over a large sample, and that is my goal when I am playing poker.

Regarding your comment on how loose people play...  I think the proper adjustment to "everyone calling" is to simply adjust your opening range.  Limping literally accomplishes nothing in my opinion.  It caps your range (Unless you start limping premium hands, and see how that affects you above) and you're not building the pot for when you do hit the flop hard.  By the river, instead of making $700, you're going to be making $200.  I think that's a huge difference and doesn't make up for the times you open/fold when you completely miss.  I would just start opening looser agains such a loose table.  It keeps my range uncapped and makes it quite difficult to play against.  The only reason it's not +EV to open QJs UTG in fr games online is because people don't play like 60/10.  In live games people do that, therefore opening QJs can be profitable in the right games.  Limping or min-opening that hand would generate less EV than just opening for the normal amount.  If you were playing online and 70% of the player pool was playing 50/10, you'd start opening all kinds of hands from EP.  These types of players aren't folding, so when you hit a big hand you may as well extract maximum value..

Regarding splitting your opening ranges.  I would be curious to see how you would counter adjust to my 3bets?  If you start 4 betting, then you're going to have to put some of your strong hands into your min-open strategy.  This is going to be worse for you for the times you get to the river with your hand and make less money because you opened for less.

EG. open for 10 - 2 callers.

$30 flop - bet 20 flop 1 call
$70 - bet 50 call
170 - bet 125 call

or.. open 25 - 2 callers

$75 flop - bet 60 call
$195 - bet 165 call
.. etc...

For this reason, I like to simply start the action early, and be able to capitalize on made hands (especially in deep games).  Also, no one is going to fold to min-opens, so you're going to have to continuously play 5+ way pots which will be a lot harder to win.  Even though you already do play multi-way pots with larger opens, you're going to be facing even more opponents, which can't be a good thing.  Obviously this doesn't account for the times that you lose.. However, being a winning player, you should know when to pick your spots and are probably going to be on the winning side more than often.  

For these reasons, I think your pre-flop game is actually really important, as it sets you up for success post-flop.

Looking forward to your opinion.

when we are talking about limping did we specify? 

lets talk purely live games here ---

1) limping after a limper 

2) open limping from earlier positions

Both have merit and most all great players will have both plays in their arsenal. Failure to say otherwise well I just don't think they are that good if they are never capable of doing the above. or they just havent played enough live for them to think #2 is nvr optimal.

 Choosing what hands you want to play what kind of pot with and not just always blind aggression of forced isos as sometimes you aren't sure if you will get a multiway pot or a hu pot (which usually doesn't happen that often in live).

nma, I hate when people are results oriented so I thank you for pointing that out. Wasn't my intention but I was very results oriented in the KK hand.

To answer your last post, I'd like to start by saying that you are right that there are multiple ways of playing a hand and the various game tree branches can be more or less EV. This is exactly my point when I say that I don't think limping vs raising is that big of a deal. I think both branches give different results but in the end it's still how good of a player you are that really matters.

Your points on the negatives on limping are all very valid. I agree with them. The thing is there are also negatives with raising. I pointed some of them out in my last reply but you failed to comment on them.

There are always going to be nagatives with a play. And like you say taking a balancing line will most often be less EV (like minraising AA) or like calling with a set on the flop vs raising, Like checking back with a turned flush etc etc. But we need to balance in order to have a less predictable game. So in all the examples you point out above where a certain balancing line will be less good I agree but my response is that that's part of the game and in the occasions we choose to take a balancing line that's alright since our general EV will increase from it.

I don't have time to write a longer reply now. My stance is still that this whole discussion isn't of that big importance. Maybe we can get Adrian Milroy in here and he can explain why he uses a limp/raising strategy online.

Alot of good posts here and alot of variety of philosophies, all which have merit.  Good thread so far.

This is a live setting, of lower stakes (I'm assuming this is 1/2 or 2/5 judging from your synopsis of the players), where everyone seems to call all the time.  People opening 5-6X are called by 4 or 5 ppl and we have massive, bloated multiway pots.  People are calling 3bets all day with no fear, but not much 3betting going on at the table in general.  Very standard for low stakes, fishy, live games.

I'm gonna give my opinion in entirety, even tho alot of my thoughts have already been posted in this thread, so my analysis below may be somewhat redundant.

First off, I would throw balancing out the window in these games.  Just forget about it in the beginning.  I would add balance to your game is time goes on, and as adjustment towards the players that actually sit around the table for more than 2-3 hrs.  At these stakes, most players are in and out in less than that time.  There's no point adding balancing to your game when the concept flies over a lot of players heads at that stake, and the other players are going to dinner in a couple hours and you will never see again...  If you play regularly, there might only be a few players that you see over and over again.  Save your balancing plays for them.  You're just hurting yourself, or costing yourself more of an edge against the rest...

Secondly, these games can be frustrating and swingy, as you pretty much can't get anyone to fold because the players are so bad.  The pots are large and multiway which means someone usually has something every hand that they are not willing to part with - generally speaking of course.  When you do win a pot, its usually quite large due to so many callers pre flop inflating the pot quickly which ends up yielding larger bets on later streets.  These games require patience for the most part until you make a hand, and at that point, you profit immensely.  You also profit in the long run by getting away from situations cheaper from other players, or very often just getting out period, before the fireworks start between others.

The best advice I could give to someone is centered around early position pre flop play.  I find in these types of games, having a deceptive hand as the PF raiser (78s, 33) usually doesn't make that much of a difference in the long run.  Most players just seem to play their own personal holdings, and possibly fear overpairs from the PF raiser.  I see no reason to bloat pots OOP with almost any hand due the fact that we know we are going up against 5-6 players everyhand.  Since nobody really 3bets, that really makes things murky and difficult for our KK/AA/AK type hands because we almost always just see a flop.  Playing OOP with an overpair or TPTK in these large multiway pots doesn't usually favor us in the long run.  Yes, its true that players are worse and will make worse calls, but very often we are outflopped in a 6 player pot, and its difficult for us to feel good putting a ton of money with just an overpair.  On top of that, the pot is bigger than normal to begin with, costing us more money when we end up folding, or possibly making us feel committed and paying off 2pr+ hands because we rationalize that our opponent isn't very good and may stack off worse than what we have.  I feel that if we flop a set or make a straight or flush, or a draw with our suited connectors, we usually get paid just as often as if we were the PF raiser.  Since everyone seems to call preflop almost every hand, we'll be getting a good price to call the pf raise anyways.  And when it limps around, we are essentially in the same position, with the same hand, but much less money invested the pot.  In these types of games, I open limp, or limp along with almost my entire range in EP.  And if someone raises, and 8000 callers come along, I can Limp-Reraise and get a ton of money in pre with my monsters...  Even if they all fold, I took down all that $ pre with no risk, whereas by opening this hand, the same amount of money would be out there in the pot, and 6 players would see a flop and get a shot to crack me.  When one or more of them call the LRR, we've usually gotten so much money in pre that we are mathematically profiting in the long run.  We can just go apeshit on any flop with our KK and AA and feel great about it because due the amount of $ our opponents called pre flop, they can't possibly beat our AA/KK often enough to even merit calling those large LRRs in the long run.

AXs are huge in these types of games as a lot of weaker players call raises or limp alot with suited junk like 94s, or T5s.  Playing AXs, especially deep, just gives you more chances to cooler players with a lack of pre flop knowledge or discipline.  I said before that I barely raise in EP in these games, that completely flips when I'm in late position (LP).  With so many loose callers at these tables, I will raise a ton of my range in the HJ, CO and BTN.  You have the power to control and run the already-bloated pot when IP and getting to see free cards or size the betting yourself vs all these opponents can allow you to win giant pots with ease, or get away cheaply as most players at this level still habitually check to the raiser in a 7 player pot still thinking that he will actually cbet like Doyle Brunson recommended.

If people are completely against limping, I think WM2K's strategy of opening small, say 2.5X is a good one.  You limit the amount of bleeding you do, yet still keep the initiative (which I think in these 6player pots means next to nothing).  He advocates splitting his opening range into 2 categories, and then thereby 2 different bet sizes.  I would just 2.5X, or min-raise my entire range rather than split it in two.

I will conclude in saying that I have to change my pre flop play in a live setting based on the gameflow.  When I play higher stakes, I'm opening a lot of my hands in EP, but when I get down to lower stakes, and the # of preflop callers start to rise, I start to limp more in EP.  Even sometimes there are crazy high stakes tables where everyone seems to call pre flop, and in those situations, I also start to limp a lot more in EP.  By raising into players that won't fold, and constantly looking at flops that we cannot cbet because there's 6players in the pot, we start to realize that we are fighting a battle that we don't need to, and adding larger variance to our bottom line (IMO) with no real redeeming factors.

Thanks for that great reply! 

To clarify it was in fact a low stake live game with blinds equivalent to $3/3. Casino in Sweden were big and small blind are the same. Played again a few days ago and a spot came up which I will be posting in a new thread shortly.

Anyway concerning limping I think Adrian pretty much nailed that down. Don't think I have anything more to add except that I think it was a good and insightful discussion. 

Just want to thank you guys for this great discussion :)

I did an interview with Alec Torelli recently, and he told me that he believes deep stack cash game fullring live is one of the most difficult form of poker, and he also suggested to have a range of openlimping, because usually people are incline to think that this is just a mistake and don't think deeply about that new situation, but they are not used to it, so they are out of their comfort zone when forced to face it.

I played three live sessions is the last 7 days. 2/2 at the same casino.

Most obvious leaks I saw:

1. Players don't like to fold
For me, the key was just to be very tight-aggressive.
With big hands, I would open/raise big, and get HU with someone. With a hand like AA UTG, I'd open to 18. The players are sticky, but there weren't that many pots with 6 players when I opened big. maybe because of my image.

2. They don't care about initiative or position
Players don't care who was the last aggressor. Even if you made a big raise pre and it's multiway, they will always donk their top pair hands etc.

3. A ton of protection betting OOP. Their bet sizing gives away their hand very easily. When overcards to their pairs come, they just bet small. I've seen the same guy protection bet 44 on 99T7 and 24Q2 with 77. They are so afraid of getting sucked out on.

4. They can't fold draws, and they don't c/r any.

5. Huge timing tells. Especially the super quick call with a mediocre hand, after having limped OOP.