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NL200 Tricky spot with nut flush on paired board

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Posted by posted in Mid Stakes

NL200 Tricky spot with nut flush on paired board

BN: $421.22
SB: $211.90
BB: $200
UTG: $233.75
LJ: $214.32
HJ: $201
CO: $217.88 (Hero)
Preflop ($3.00) (7 Players)
Hero was dealt J K
UTG raises to $5, LJ folds, HJ folds, Hero calls $5, BN folds, SB folds, BB folds
Sometimes 3betting, Sometimes calling.
Flop ($13.00) 7 A 5 (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $8, UTG calls $8
Betting with the nuts
Turn ($29.00) 7 A 5 A (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $20, UTG raises to $64, Hero calls $44
When I get check/raised I find it hard to put villain on that many boats since he would have played sets/2p differently on the flop? But then again what bluffs does he have here? I guess he can be doing it with worse flushes and maybe trips although that line feels very bad?
River ($157.00) 7 A 5 A 9 (2 Players)
UTG bets $102.05, Hero calls
Once I call the turn I guess I'm almost always calling the river but villains low river agr% and villains bet sizing makes me wonder. Then again the nut flush is pretty high in my range. I'm not always calling 55 in these positions and usually not A7s, A9s and A5s so that leaves some rare random boats, 77 and the rest flushes and trips.

Bonus question: What's villains range?

Bonus question 2: What's villains exact hand ( I called)

INFO ON VILLAIN: Villain is a Reg that is kind of non orthodox. He plays exploitably and does things like 4bet shove 77 in SB vs BB etc.

This is a fullring table and almost all stats are from FR. Relevant stats on villain..

20/16

Open UTG: 18%

Cbet Flop: 35%

Check/Fold flop when didn't cbet: 63%

CR Flop: 8%

CR Turn: 11%

Flop Agr%: 33

Turn Agr%: 29

River Agr%: 22




20 Comments

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Chael Sonnen 10 years, 7 months ago

Now that I know you play full ring, I don't think we can be buddies anymore. :(

Anyway, this depends on your opponent.
An 18% opener has every set in his range, but not every A7s I think.

He has to be checking a set or two pair OOP to make you want to fold here.
Checking those hands is actually pretty solid because:
-He wants to be uncapped on board pairs
-You're not flatting many offsuit hands CO vs superfullringUTG, so you usually have a flush or no draw (unless you have a pair or AK)

If you think your opponent does this a lot, you should lean more towards folding.
KQs is a significantly worse bluffcatcher than KJs, because he has some valuecuts in his range, and some blocker c/r bluffs.

Another consideration is that a lot of his boats probably want to c/r river. Especially the ones blocking your calling range.

I assume you're not flatting 55/77/A5/A7/A9 in this spot, so the nut flush has to be a call here.


BigFiszh 10 years, 7 months ago

I immediately had to "like" this post after the first sentence, but I was sure that the rest would support this like and I was right. :)

themightyjim 10 years, 7 months ago
fwiw back in the day when I played (and crushed) and lot of FR NLHE I would be flatting 55-99, and sometimes A5s in Robs spot all day against that loose of an opener if there weren't squeezers behind.  FR regs in general did not handle having predictable ranges OOP well.  So CC'ing a little wider with the ability to put a lot of pressure on boards they didn't cover well was certainly a profitable strategy.

Most people play a lot of FR because they like to make value hands and bet them, and fold when the board looks bad for their hand ;)


themightyjim 10 years, 7 months ago

folding would be pretty exploitable, so without a read I wouldn't do it.  And posting here means you didn't have the read ;)  Of course I'd start noting his turn x/r range for similar spots because it could be that an exploitable fold is in order for the future.

R0b5ter 10 years, 7 months ago

Chael, I had to come out of the closet. Unfortunately this was what I was afraid of. To my defence I play a mix of FR, 6max and even some HU at times. So I guess I kind of like all forms of the game. Like a bi-gamimg lover. But if that's not good enough for you I guess I can't do much.

Concerning the hand. Very good advice. Looking at it today I actually think the interesting part and probably what I will learn from is villains flop range. In game I pretty much discarded a lot of boats since I didn't see him playing them like that on the flop. Now I really do see that it is well played of him to in fact check back a lot of sets on the flop. His actual hand was Ad5d. 

Jim, yeah folding is for sure exploitable. And I didn't have the read to pull it off. I guess I was looking for some advice given the stats I provided and if they could maybe give a clue but I understand it wasn't enough. Still glad I posted it though since I got to learn something. 

themightyjim 10 years, 7 months ago
looking closer at his numbers (it was pretty late when I first replied to this thread) I could buy an argument for a fold based on his flop cbet and x/f stat.  His cbet stat is pretty low, and his x/f stat isn't high for FR, so it's clear he's x/cing some value hands on the flop.  Two pair or top pair+FD would make the most sense for x/c'ing since they don't play fantastic vs a raise and also block some hands they can get value from by betting.  I doubt with those numbers he's checking many sets though, so he still doesn't have many boats in his range by the turn.

In thinking about this hand the biggest problem I'm running into is figure out what hands he can use as bluffs when x/r'ing the turn after taking this line.  With us having the K and J of clubs, I guess something like QcX is possible, but that can't be more than a few combos.  I don't think he's going to have many 9c8x type hands that peel the turn with equity and then try to bluff the turn.  Would he x/r the turn with worse flushes?  Would he x/r AX without a boat trying to bluff you off a flush? His stats certainly don't suggest that kind of aggression.

I'm starting to wonder if we can make an exploitable fold simply because villain won't have a bluff range in this spot on the turn.  And his value range is going to be ahead of our hand.

frankly I really hate villains line with his hand.  Since I can't come up with a bluff range he just needs to be protecting his x/c'ing flop range on the turn by x/c'ing again, and then he can x/jam the river. 


jaacsin 10 years, 7 months ago

I actually dont think its bad to cbet 77,55 here because i guess your CO calling range againts the UTG OR has a some Ax too like AJs, AQo, AK, and we dont block those... A5 its ok to chek here given the reasons that Chael said but i guess theres more value on cbetin 55-77 here

Sauce123 10 years, 7 months ago

I donno, I'd just fold.  I don't think he plays QTcc/JTcc like this more than 5% of the time, and I think he plays a set like this more like 33-50% of the time.  I don't think he's bluffing often when you hold KJcc, and if he's bluffing it'd have to be with something odd like TcTx which seems unlikely.  You'll play all of your boats exactly like this, making his marginal bluffs even scarier to pull the trigger with than normal.

ilares 10 years, 7 months ago

is it to nit to fold on the turn? i would fold if vilain x/r turn is tight, which is the case of most of the regs i know

AF3 10 years, 7 months ago
is it to nit to fold on the turn? i would fold if vilain x/r turn is tight, which is the case of most of the regs i know


That's a good point.  For those advocating an exploit fold on the river, it makes no sense to call the turn (unless somehow he gives up quite often after check-raising in spots where you don't think he's bluffing). 

ilares 10 years, 7 months ago
indeed; he will bet river 99% of the time after x/raising turn, except maybe on A/7 so ~10% of the river, so i think he will bet 90% of the time river, so folding turn seems ok


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