Forgetting What It Means To be A Winner: Deficit In Self-Image Circle
Posted by Daz
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Daz
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Mental Game
Forgetting What It Means To be A Winner: Deficit In Self-Image Circle
For many months i've been breakeven or losing and i feel like i forgot what it felt like to win. I'm wondering if the poor results are now perpetuating itself. That i'm somehow programmed to lose mentally because i got so good at it - good at losing that is.
From the book With Winning In Mind, Bassham talk about needing a strong Self-Image Circle that your skills, both Conscious and Unconscious, bounce off or reflect off in order to perform at your best.
Right now i just don't seem to put together winning sessions anymore, i'm breakeven at best or i win then somehow lose it back before i'm done. I would be winning 2-3 buy ins then lose a flip and what to get back to that 2-3 buy in winning 'mark' only to lose it all back again.
What should my expected returns be playing 50NL? what am i meant to win daily with reasonable winrates? when i play i feel like i should be winning $250 a day and yet i struggle to make profit.
When i begin my session, i try sit down with a clear head, forgetting what negative or accumulated emotions i may have and what has been going on around me. I often start the session down having lost in very 'standard' spots. Then i slowly work my back to even then begin winning. But i'm faltering and i'm not sure anymore. My HM2 is not working with new site i'm trying so reviewing my sessions has been a problem (two days and trying to sort it out).
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This is a very tough thing to fix, and I don't think anyone can give you a concrete answer.
My advise to you would be to:
Take a short break (3 days or so)
Relax, do something fun every day
Watch videos for a couple of days after that and try to learn something.
Think about the things you learned and think about appyling them, and how you're going to succeed.
Then start playing then and go into fuck you mode.
Often times when you lose confidence, you let players run over you, and wait until you can cooler them.
Switch it around and be aggressive, let them do something about it, and not the other way around.
Sit in your chair with broad shoulders and tell everyone to come and get it, while breaking down spots as if you were you teaching them to someone else.
Yes, i need this "Fuck You" mentality, not coming from place of arrogance or ego but from the sheer determination to not go down without a fight. It is a war, its been a war on my own psyche and now i must meet it head on.
There's many ways you can regain your confidence, but none will work if you don't take a break from poker, as Chael mentioned.
You could get back in contact with an old friend, or visit your family, go workout, sight seeing, etc.
Personally, whenever I'm passing through a rough patch, I take a break, get a haircut, go to the gym, and order some pizza with some friends. The haircut and the gym help me regain confidence in myself (just looking better), and my friends help me forget about poker for a while.
When you get back to poker, think more about having fun/playing well than winning. Pat yourself on the back when you make a good fold, etc.
Last thing: Taking a break from poker can also mean taking a break from all things poker: RIO, training videos, or even checking the lobbies. It's different for everyone. The break is meant to help you clear your mind, so looking at the games that are running and that you're missing can be terrible for you. Remember, there's always another table, there's always another hand.
Taking a break is probably one of my biggest weaknesses. In an effort to push myself or to 'make things right' by playing more, i'v probably done more damage than good.
Traditional advice is the HARDER you WORK, the MORE you PRACTICE the LUCKIER you get. i don't think i've worked harder than ever before this year and things just got from bad to worse.
I forgot how important it was to balance things. I let life dictate things instead of maintaining control myself OR letting go of things outside my control. Its easy to get caught up in everyday life challenges, and blame external forces for my troubles but it was I who let things overwhelm me. So much has happened this year BESIDES poker that also made things tough. I've lost and seen others lose a lot more than just money this year. There are so many wonderful and precious things in this world i hope that i remain grateful for anything i have and for those loving people i have with me, even during times of financial stress/troubles.
Poker granted me the ability to help others. But i neglected myself and i needed new perspectives on things that might of come a little too late.
Glad I could help you realize that. Best of luck to you, Daz.
Hi Daz,
It sounds like you have become overly concerned/obsessed with winning. Which is something that happens to all of us especially after a very long period of NOT winning.
I myself experienced a multi-month downswing that lasted several months back in 2010. I was just taking shots at 400NL and then got doomswitched. Had to move down to 200NL. Then down to 100NL. Then down to 50NL, and still couldn't beat it.
I ended up quitting poker for the next few years because of it. But finally, I realized that I wasn't addressing the root cause.
The root cause was my mental expectation of thinking I should be winning.
All we can do is play each hand our best. Even if we do this, there is no way we can expect to win $X in a day. We might play our best and still lose, but the whole premise of poker is that in the long run we will win by continually playing our best.
Like you, I sometimes find myself chasing losses especially after starting a session down a couple BI immediately. But we need to remind ourselves that poker is just one long game. One really really long game. And even if you take a break for 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, the game will always be there when you get back.
I'm not sure if you're a pro or not, but it can be very frustrating when poker is your only source of income. I tried to be a pro in 2008 and I didn't even make it past 2 months before I got fed up and started looking for a real job. But this was mainly due to my mental game weaknesses. As many have said, poker is the best secondary job, but the worst primary job.
As the others have said, some time off can make a world of a difference.
I've been a professional player for 7 years. My only source of income from which i bought a apartment and had several investments.
Sounds like you've hit a wall aka are burnt out. A break might be well in order then.
I mean, if you aren't in a state to be a winning player, then taking a break will be 0EV, as opposed to -EV of playing, right? :)
Good luck!!
Hey Daz,
I happen to agree with what the rest are saying back to you. I think a break from the game is definitely in need. Think of it as a much needed vacation from poker, and plan on doing some things that aren't poker related at all, to get you're mind off of all of this. Take a long enough vacation so that when you come back to the tables, you're inspired and motivated to play because you haven't in a little bit. I'm kinda going through the same thing at the moment, but not as bad as you because I don't rely on poker for my main source of income. For me, it's a second source of income along with my real job which is my first. 2013 has been an up and down year for me, and it looks like I'm gonna be ending it in the red unfortunately. Even when I do everything right, something goes wrong. I consider myself a good player overall, and I just happen to be getting a lot of bad beats and just not connecting with the board at all. But you know something, that's poker. It has the beauty of winning you a lot of money at times making you feel unstoppable, or it has the ugliness of loosing you a lot of money at times making you feel miserable and depressed. If you think about it, poker is similar to life. There's times when everything is going great and you feel happy, and then there's those unfortunate times when you might happen to lose someone important in your life, have rough times at work, or even have a relationship end, which makes you feel like absolute shit. Life throws tests at all of us. If life wasn't hard at times, I think it would actually be kinda boring and uninteresting. It all about how we prepare for the tests ahead of us and how we embrace it which makes life itself unique, just as unique as poker is. Now, with all of this said, you have options granted to you. You can either: A) Take a vacation from poker and focus on other things for the time being until you're fully inspired and motivated to play and study once again, (not saying you aren't inspired and motivated in the first place, but a rekindle of inspiration is always a plus.) Or B) Keep on grinding it out hoping to embark on an upswing since you're more than capable of doing so, but while grinding, just remember to stay positive and optimistic. I guess my best piece of advice to give you is to wrap this year up and throw it in the fire. Start playing again in 2014. Think of it as a new beginning, where the past is in the past and all you gotta think about is the current time frame. You'll work it out Daz. Like I said earlier, if life wasn't hard at times, it'd be uninteresting.
Best of luck to you man on and off of the felt and enjoy the new year ahead.
Hey
Been thinking about your problem, you being a winning professional player for long, and now facing prolong tilt and mental issues
Everyone here is trying to give you various advice, and im sure you take in consideration advice given, but appareently none helped you yet
My suggestion is that we try all to find core of your problem, by simplly naming various whatever things that come to mind, maybe we get lucky and finally discover whats been bothering you. To me, it does look like some psychological problem, but since im no psychologist at all nor have any connection with the field, ill just try by suggesting you probable things
!1 that came to my mind , and 1 i remembered i had at 1 point, is fear that we will never be succesful and we will remain loser in the game. Everyone is working on their game putting effort but not all succeed, and no matter how confident we are, it still remains little question in back of the mind - what if i never make it!!!??
My suggestion is that, among other things you find peace with the answer to this, it is NOT end of the world if u actually never make it as poker player, new things do not come by to do and work every dayu, but im firm believer there is some big plan for each of us and good things await , whatever future have planned for us, there is never 1 and only exit and way .
By this, by no means i suggest you turn to other things, just to face teh fear of failure, and accept it as not end of the world, that fear may causing you mental blockage
Of course, you sit and do your best then, but with no fear of failure
Failure is for all human beings, and its on us to stand up and try over and over again till we get there
If you keep the fear in your subconcious, it will deminish your progress and winning capabilities by far
~ this was 1 thing that came to my mind, you keep posting and we think of various solutions, hopefuilly we hit jackpot soon and find that core of your problem, that really looks psychological
You know this already, but it doesn't hurt to be reminded:
Redefine the meaning of "winning" so that it applies to things you can control. This is a winning poker work day for me:
- Sleep well, breakfast & shower
- Study/warm-up session
- Play
- Work out, have lunch
- Play
- Put poker down, dinner, relax
When I stay on schedule, I'm productive. When I stray from schedule, not so much. I know this because history tells me so. So I make it a goal to stay on schedule. A day like that goes in the win column, and I feel I have accomplished something.
Now, when you lose for long periods, stick with your routine as if your life depended on it. When it's your turn to take a downswing, you might as well lose with grace and on schedule. This means that when you're done losing for the day you're done. As long as you've lost on schedule and you've lost by playing well, you have done your job perfectly, and you've won.
Nobody deserves to win dollars. We like to think effort always gets rewarded in poker, but it doesn't. Some people end up as statistical outliers, losing over extended periods of time. When that happens, you can a) make it smooth, or b) make it worse. Most people choose b) because we don't accept losing $ when we play our best, because the brain is not a computer, and it isn't designed to understand randomness.
So we try harder, which won't help at all if you were already playing your best. Then we get frustrated, and we try even harder, and we might change the way we play because we feel like we need to be doing something. But sometimes you just lose, and you're supposed to lose sometimes, because mathematics dictates it. So instead of falling into the must-change-something trap, try to do things the same way every day, as long as it's strategy you know to be correct.
Since you'll always have feelings connected with results, don't try to squash them, because that won't work. Change which results the feelings are connected to (things you can control), and then you can make yourself feel better by doing these things well.
Very well put. Thanks for taking the time to write this I think this can help a lot of People even if they aren't facing this type of thing Now it will eventually happen to each one of us as Poker Players.
solid equity on this post changing my life, appreciate the kindness sir.
wondering if you could elaborate on what a warm-up session is haha tyty
Warm-up is just the things you usually do before playing. I like to catch up on forums and watch a vid while sipping the morning coffee. Something light-but-poker-related to get in the right frame of mind before playing.
"Light" is a good word for the pre-session feeling I want to have. Lightness of mind and spirit, and no heavy analysis-or-learning when I plan to play a lot that day. It's good to separate learning from execution (read Tendler's books for more about this). When I play, I want to have energy and the play to just flow. I can correct mistakes later.
Hope this gave you some ideas. :-)
Your warm-up is anything that gets you to play your A-Game from the first hand you get dealt. Many players wonder why they only start winning 15-20 minutes into their session and its usually because their mind hasn't yet adjusted to being ready to function at its peak.
you may want a list of areas that you are currently working on. To remind you of where you may want to focus extra hard. Just getting your mind in a good state using exercise, music etc might be enough
i have a short document i read through before each session reminding me of key trouble areas, but then stating it as a positive affirmation. Here are examples below:
ATTACHMENT! I based my decision on my opponent not
my holecards
MY FOCUS IS ON WHAT MY OPPONENT IS REPRESENTING
AND HOW IS RANGE MATCHES THE BOARD
I ROUTINELY FOLD PREMIUM PAIRS and ABSOLUTE
STRENGTH HANDS WHEN I FEEL I’M BEAT
-PREFLOP
VERSUS UNKNOWN 3BET/4BET/5BET TENDENCIES
- FACING
FLOP RAISES
-FACING
CONTINUED AGGRESSION FROM THE PREFLOP RAIER/3BETTOR
-FACING BIG
BETS FROM THE 3BETTOR WHEN HE LIKELY HAS OVERPAIRS, TPTK AQ/AJ on Qxx, Jxx
OVERPAIRS ON LOW BOARDS
- SETS
FACING POOR BOARD RUNOUTS
I AM SOLID AND RESERVE FANCY- AND UNORTHODOX PLAY
FOR OPPONENTS FOR WHICH I HAVE SPECIFIC READS ON
I CAREFULLY SELECT WHEN TO DRAW AND WHEN TO
SEMI-BLUFF EFFECTIVELY. I HIT MY DRAWS OFTEN AND GET PAID OFF WHEN I DO. I
BLUFF ONLY WHEN I HAVE A GOOD READ ON VILLAIN
I MAINTAIN CONTROLLED, FOCUSED, METHODICAL AGGRESSION
I AM PATIENT AND PLAY THE WAITING GAME, I LET MY OPPONENTS
MAKE THE MISTAKES FOR ME
FACED WITH BIG RIVER BETS AND BARRELS – FOLD. I CALL DOWN
ONLY WHEN I’M CONFIDENT MY RANGE IS GOOD AND VILLAIN IS WEAK, what
type of villain am I up against?
I HAVE A PLAN FOR THE HAND AND STICK TO IT
I VALUE MY HAND APPRORIATELY. I BET ACCURATELY TO
MAXIMISE MY WIN/EV
I CONTINUE TO PLAY WELL DESPITE UNFAVOURABLE
SITUATIONS
BREATHE THINK BET DELIBERATE PLAY TRUST
MY INSTINCT
MY PREFLOP RANGES ARE SOUND AND WELL CONSTRUCTED
SINKING FEELINGS AND FEELINGS OF ATTACHMENT TO MY
HAND ARE GREAT SIGNALS TO HELP ME MAKE A GREAT FOLD
I DON’T HAVE TO KNOW IM RIGHT TO MAKE THE RIGHT
PLAY
FINDING A FOLD
I am fully aware of the following:
·
A bet sizing tell, or some other tell
·
Feelings of attachment
·
Sunken feelings
·
Loss of focus
·
Lack of discipline
·
Looking for tells to ‘help you find a call’ physical or player notes
“It is not enough to be a good player you must also play well”
-
You do better than others when finding a great fold when others call and lose to
better hands
FORGET ABOUT WORRYING ABOUT FOLDING THE BEST HAND
TRUST YOUR EXPERIENCE AND ABILITY INSTEAD
Its important that your warm-up doesn't include new areas, new information - you don't want to overload your mind with new things before you begin to play.
Great post Zen.
I have a schedule setup that includes everything above. My schedule MUST be maintained and will be one of my main goals for 2014.
I will be taking a break over Christmas till New Year, in the meanwhile i'm playing fewer tables and just playing for the enjoyment and seeing what i feel are my stronger areas and what i need to work on for next year.
Interestingly, my red line is now horizontal for the first time in a year. i've been doing some things differently - "fuck you" mentality, getting back to being more of a bully at the tables - controlled methodical aggression, not random spaz bets/bluffs. Just trying to take every opportunity in the small pots and putting that big raise in when i feel villain is weak. Sometimes i don't want to raise cos i feel i'm not telling a good story but this is the lower limits and as long as i realize this it might be okay.
i might have been trying TOO HARD as ZenFish mentioned, instead of letting my subconscious do the work for me at the table. i was expending too much mental energy.
Thank you so much to everyone who has spared the time to write to me and help me with things, i truly appreciate it and am very grateful for this wonderful, caring community
Daz, I feel your pain. I would really recommend you read or listen to Dale Carnegie's How to Stop Worrying and Start Living while you are having your downtime. It's helped me a lot with all sorts of (non-poker) issues. In summary - life's not fair, shitty things happen to good people, don't worry about things we can't control, accept the worst that can happen and then make a plan to get a better outcome. Even though I gave you the summary, I'd still get the book - it's calming, constructive and full of practical tips if a bit old fashioned.
Wish you all the best.
there is tons of good advice on here, but the most simple thing I can suggest is:
- make +EV decisions in a vacuum.
As humans it is nearly impossible for us to analyze situations without taking into account environmental effects and macro trends. Long losing stretches, poor sleep, tragic personal events, all of these things can change the way you analyze and execute a tough decision. The most important thing is to not plan on winning OR don't try to win. Don't have a goal for how you're going to win or how much or by when. Just plan on playing, playing your best, and making the most profitable decision that is in front of you. Always we need to focus on the decision at hand. Use past information to give us data to help guide decisions, but don't use it as an excuse to make a -EV decision.
In the middle of a very very bad losing stretch myself I realized that personal goals for profit, hands/hours played, had changed the way I was playing the game. Instead of sitting down with the plan to play poker and make profitable decisions, I was sitting down with the plan of playing X number of hands over Y number of hours with a goal of making a certain amount of money at the end of the month. However, as I hit a normal stretch of run bad I TRIED to adjust my play to reach my goals. I thought the losing was due to poor strategy and I adjusted my strategy and attempted to create +EV situations in order to get back on track. This process resulted in finding myself in thinner more difficult spots, just as my confidence was deteriorating. Instead of falling back on basic profitable plays that I understood would work I was attempting to implement new and difficult strategies not because I knew they were profitable but because I was chasing a goal. I allowed the macro trends of my game (a long losing stretch caused in part by running bad, bad play, etc) to impact my micro decisions. To the point that my effort to create winning situations was actually making my game worse and worse.
In the end I reached a point of mental rock bottom and it caused me to reconsider how I had been playing. I realized that I needed to just make the game as easy as possible, and try to play for fun and not to reach some crazy goal of hours/hands or profit. So I tightened up a lot in a lot of spots. And I'm sure I'm not playing GTO and observant opponents are probably making some adjustments and maybe I'm losing a little profit in some spots But conversely I started getting the money in good, and occasionally winning again. Also the success of correctly analyzing some situations helped to retrain my brain how to think about poker. How to filter out the noise and focus and make solid evaluations based on available information in the moment. And that calmed my mind and allowed me to focus on the next hand, and the next decision. It allowed me to ignore the recent past, and stop stressing about the distant future.
play the game in the present.
yes this makes a lot of sense to me and in some way i started doing some of the things you mentioned in your last paragraph. I finally decided that life is is too good to be miserable like i was. And so i have been looking at things from new persepctive.
your list of things to review in warmups seem very long. i feel like a better approach is to pick the top 3-4 things you need to improve and give them all your focus for a few weeks or until you feel like you have really mastered(overpracticed) them and then you can remove them from your list and add others.
also work off the felt on your top 3 - use MGOP like analysis on them, do some database review on them, do some math/CREV type work on them, post some HHs in the forums on them. by attaching each problem from all angles with intense focus is more likely to yield better results than by scattering your focus on 10+ items
yes, i have been adding things to it so it does need revision. Will make sure that goes on the to-do-list.
Really solid advice, i will definitely be going through the most prevalent areas of my mental game. i may in fact post those areas in the mental game forum as i want to make sure i have covered everything. be sure to look out for it!
I am currently on a poker break, but couldn't help but browse RIO forums
stop worrying about your poker and go have a bunch of eggnog or Irish coffee :)
Binge-reading Chatter/Mental Game due to doomswitch. This was one of the greatest reads -> Bump!
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