Can't stop making horrible calls - Mental Game issues.
Posted by Danshiel350
Posted by
Danshiel350
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Mental Game
Can't stop making horrible calls - Mental Game issues.
Hello all,
Couldn’t decide whether to post this or not but I figure at
the very minimum just me writing this down should be beneficial on some level.
I’ve seen other mental game threads with excellent responses, so here goes…
I’ve just completed my first 50k hands at 50NL and have been
haunted by a ridiculous mental game leak whereby I make horrible calls on the
river. I’m talking like some of the most spewy “bluff catches” because I invent
some very remote scenario whereby “they could be bluffing”.
I always fast click the call button and instantly see why it
is bad but it’s like I’ve pressed it before I can install rational analysis.
I am currently reading MGOP, and intend to implement
strategies, although I can’t decide how to categorise it. If it’s entitlement
tilt, or hate losing tilt, idk. I just hate the thought that I ever get
bluffed.
As a result, I have ~33% WTSD which I realise is very high
and whilst I have a positive win rate, I worry about it’s sustainability. That said,
I’m very excited to see what I could win if I plug this leak.
On a rational level, I know how stupid this is. I have just
wrote out why that is so. The trouble is, in game, I still sometimes revert to
this horrible leak.
Anyway…..
My questions are:
Does anybody else out there have this problem?
What strategies did you implement to
successfully deal with it?
Loading 43 Comments...
Well done for making the thread bro.
1. 33% WTSD is only a bit high and the sample's not massive so all I say is make sure you are making an incorrect decision in the first place.
2. There is usually some logic to you calling (not saying it is correct or EV+). This might just be that you have a need to see what he had or you think you can learn from it. Anything like that, the point is to try and identify why you do it (I think this pertains to you asking if its Entitlement Tilt or whichever form of tilt it is). You are not losing the money on purpose so try to identify the logical reason for it (there will be one).
3. Solve the problem. If you have big designs for poker then most of the things you read will be only side-steps to avoid the problem. They are temporary I can assure you. You need to attempt to solve the problem.
Come back when you have thought about these. Ofc you can ask me on Skype if you prefer but think it will be good for you to out it in here.
1. There are some calls that I would define as questionable but justifiable marginally. There are some though that are straight up bad on any level. Calling KK down turn and river after Ace hit turn in 3b pot for stacks was the latest episode which made me think this HAS to stop.
2. I think the thought process tends to be, " this guy isn't bluffing me", or, sometimes i refuse to let go easily enough when the worst card hits. It's especially bad if im losing, or if I've recently lost a big pot. Which again represents a big leak mentally.
3. That's why i'm here. ;-) Hopiong for some practical suggestions and for some people to share their similar experiences.
Hi, i had this problem to, since last year Oktober. Since 2 weeks, iǘe realized, that i just clicked buttons! i reduced my Rush-Tables to 2 Tables. And i have decided to take time before every decision! If i openraise, i look, what kind of players are behind me! If i bet, i take time to think about betsize, and if i want villain to call or fold! Take time, play slow!! My winrate was -2, and now +15bb!
I play rush50, do we play together?
Definitely play less tables AND focus (we're not talking about 2 tabling and watching a movie / chatting) is a highway for improvement IMO. As far as your problem is concerned, it will force you to take time for your decisions (you have less incentive to make a hasty call, as compared to having action everywhere going). This said, having more time can sometimes lead to more levelling and more stupid calls. Still, the experience is worth it IMO, because you'll have time to explore the feelings that arise in those river situations. Then you can slowly learn on them. Don't expect it to come this easily. It might be solved quick, but in all likelihood, you'll keep making bad calls for a while, and that's ok. That's ok because: a) you have to make mistakes to improve, this is the inevitability of poker and life, as for us weird primates ; b) the mistakes of calling too much is surely the most common mistake in NLHE, so I guess you can deduce something from that.
We have to understand that it is firmly ingrained in us to hate uncertainty. This is more 'rewarding' to pay off and be wrong that to fold and remain uncertain. We'd rather make mistakes and having a way of knowing if it was one, that making a fold and wondering. Compare to that what we feel when making a hero call. We feel heroic :D. At least way more heroic than when we make a hero fold (usually). We also don't feel as bad when making a bad call as we feel powerful when making a sick call down. So IMO, there are strong emotional impulses and tendencies in all that, and they're actually pretty trivial, because they apply for most poker players, bad or good (the better they are, the less they are victims of their emotions though, obviously. But they still feel them).
Now how do you work on strong human tendencies? Well, that doesn't come easily. It's all about knowing oneself, and it's different for everyone. Advice: start a session with few tables, and purposefully take time to focus on river decisions. This means, when you get to the river, small or big pot, you say to yourself: 'here and now is what I'm trying to work on'. Try to get what you feel. Write it down after the session. Then find habits to change it. Basically be as aware as you can when it happens. It implies getting ready for it, so think about it when warming up, but also when playing, keep it on your mind. Don't be obsessed and frightful though ;). Many traps on the way, I've experienced a bunch of them in my own process. At the end of the session, if you see some improvement, even slight (let's say you had the impulse to make what you know is a bad call, and didn't, but you eventually made one at the end of the session, well that's already a big improvement). Try not to get mad at yourself, you'll keep making this mistake again and again. Only way to improve is to be diligent yet patient with oneself. Because if anger comes out when you make mistakes, well this will possibly cost you even more (new form of tilt, mistakes tilt).
Here is some work I had done on this kind of 'calling station' leak, for myself, inspired on The Mental Game of Poker 2.
Mental
blank / calling station syndrom
Describe:
I stop thinking correctly and go against my guts in key spots,
usually big bloated pots facing agression. I don't think it relates
to my gut instincts, usually I know I have to fold ; but time
elapes, and it's as if I was looking for a reason to stack off light
(either call or shove myself): I'll usually find one by looking at
stats or notes. Today, I shove AK unimproved in a 4b pot, after a
check-raise, against a passive stationary fish with a tiny 3b stat,
because I had a note saying 'slowplays!' Obviously he had KK, he DID
slowplay (preflop, not on the flop), and I just made an utterly
stupid analysis of the situation.
Explain:
I want to see the result of the hand? I stop thinking logically
because there must be something inside me that doesn't want to fold
(although I know the situation stinks). I remember a hand against a
reg when I got raised on the turn in a 3b pot on a dry board: I
thought this was a situation in which it wouldn't make sense to play
a value hand like this ; still there is no bluff in his range. I
erase some factors in my mind, and highlight the ones that allow me
to make a ill-adviced decision.
The logic is flawed because I forget some key parameters in the hand
(like size of the pot, how strong my hand range look like, how
unlikely it is for opponent to bluff), solely to focus on others.
Correction:
follow my initial instinct in big pots and not let the mind wander
through and fuck it up. From experience, I usually know what's wrong
to do.
I will hopefully work until I find a better solution for stopping my
mind from 'blanking' in those spots. It involves a lot of rational
work outside of the table in order to learn to make good folds and
be proud of them.
Awesome Mr Sneeze thats my biggest leak, I ll try to use that method of focus when the situation comes, along with math work outside, but for this last one what do you recommend doing or how your work on leaks is?
Thanks Mr Sneeze, great reply!
Some of the replies I got here and with a few poker buddies have made me realise I'm not alone in this. What you said a bout human nature and uncertainty really resonated well with me, i'm really bad for that! My gf tells me off for trying to spoil films for myself before they finish! :)
As for the "forgetting key parameters", I will attempt to document specifically which ones i do leave out. I think for sure that with off of the table work these instincts will be honed and be more subconciously accessible.
I hate getting bluffed too and when I remarked on this good players said "why do you hate getting bluffed....it's just part of the game". Makes sense. Also I try not to call when my gut is telling me I'm beat.....or make call downs against passive players or nits with just overcards. It usually happens late when I am getting tired or when I look at my hand preflop and decide that this is my pot lol
I would advice to run some math on typical spots where you tend to overcall the river. Figure out the EV that their bluffs have to float on earlier streets against your range, and adjust your calling ranges based on that. If you know what range you should be calling then it just becomes just a matter of execution instead of playing every single hand as if it's your only bluffcatcher.
If you know what to do, making mistakes becomes much harder. You won't be raising 62o from UTG, maybe you'd raise 62s when on tilt, but if you know exactly what range to open you would never do that.
Cool, thanks. I like this point also.
Figure out the EV that their bluffs have to float on earlier streets
against your range, and adjust your calling ranges based on that.
For some reason, I don't get exactly what that means / how to do it :(
Care to clarify or give an example ?
Thanks.
For instance a A93 flop, take 54 a floating hand for your opponent. If you know your cbet range and how often you call on average based on the runouts you can calculate the EV his float. If he is +EV to float with 54 and -EV to float with air like 86 then you don't have to worry that you're getting bluffed when you consider herocalling him since he needs equity to float profitably.
you mean calculating EV of Villain's flop calling range with CREV, for instance, and comparing the equities of the bottom of his range to decide if we're getting bluff enough to herocall ? I feel I'm still confused ...
You can do this with CREV for instance. And the goal is to find the minimum equity he need to float and bluff. If he can do that profitable with a (very) wide range you are calling too infrequent and need to adjust your strategy. For instance being tighter on the flop or calling rivers with any pair etc.
Hey Robert - I think you can do this w/ just small subsections of villains range or even just an individual hand. For instance take your range and give villain a terrible flop float and see if your strategy makes that terrible float -EV or +EV (if it's +EV you need to adjust your range). Then give him a reasonable float like the one in Game Theory's example 45 on A93 if he is super +EV w/ that you should probably adjust a little till he is just a little +EV but his "air" floats would be minus EV.
At least, that is how I have interpreted Game Theory's post - hopefully he will correct me if I am wrong. I believe it would be easiest for me to do this w/ crEV but it would get super complicated and frustrating if I tried to give villain a complete real range/strategy.
I think you just need to check the benchmark hands, kind of a logic check - like on AhJh6c Villain shouldn't have a profitable flop call 9s7s but probably should w/ KhTs or Kh6s. Maybe my examples are bad, I did just pull them out of thin air. But just toying around w/ a couple different things should be of an immense help.
edit: When I 1st read Game Theory's post, I thought "yeah that sounds cool but for a mere mortal like myself it is way too complicated". Then I thought about it some more, you mentioned crEV and I thought "Wait, maybe this is possible for me to do". So, please, Game Theory if I am way off in what I said try and point me in the better direction ;)
Don't worry, it all sounds great!
my advice is learn PLO, play 50k hands and then you will understand that NL is not so sick ...
sorry just teasing. but seriously, a river leak is a dangerous thing for obvious reasons and you can be a zen buddha and get every decision right on every other street and still lose money if you spaz out and make regular mistakes on the river.
i think you need to edit your thought process in bluffcatching spots on the river.
if you are snap calling there's simply no way you are going through enough of a process, and it sounds like if you just give yourself those extra couple of seconds for your 'poker brain' to catch up to your 'lizard brain' (whenever your heart rate goes up and your blood starts moving and you feel any physiological reaction, that is your lizard brain kicking in and helpfully turning your frontal lobes off for you), you will be able to analyse spots more fully
think of this. if someone had just grabbed the $50 out of your hand and was running down the street, that surge of adrenaline and shutting down of the frontal lobes would be the right reaction for your brain to put your into fight-or-flight mode. but when villain is sitting in vladivostok and you have a time bank, you don't want your logical faculties shutting down; if you have an edge in your game, its in your frontal lobes.
getting a bit more technical, staying unemotional will allow you to consider the 'levels' in the hand and get that extra bit of info to make you feel confident in your fold. its not enough for there to be a hand that villain could possibly be bluffing with on this line; what is YOUR image ? is it plausible that he would think you would have a hand that would pay off, or that you might fold ?
any kind of snap call on the river surely doesn't leave enough time for these kinds of processes. by now i bet you can just about sense when that big bet is coming on the river; when you are watching and waiting to see if villain pulls the trigger, focus on your breathing. make sure you take a few deep breaths before even putting your hand on the mouse. also because : short, shallow breaths don't oxygenate the blood sufficiently.
Yeah, you're right that my brain is shutting down here. No question about that. THe issue has been that I've pressed call before i make any analysis.
I'm down to 2 tables the last few sessions to try to stop this.
One thing I can improve on alot is getting more specific at working through ranges from earlier streets. Typically the emotion is less high on the earlier streets I find, so if I arrive at the river with a plan then it seems like I'm less likely to shut down and abandon all analytical thought. Even though I'm still guilty of forming a decent plan, and changing my mind on the river!
I read this thread here a few weeks back, I'm gonna try implement something like this: http://www.runitonce.com/chatter/thought-process-whats-yours-like/
Hi Danshiel!
I was exactly like that. My biggest leak was by far calling the river too much. Loved to hero call, was always finding some excuse to call, etc., just like you said.
Two things helped me with this issue:
1- Learning game theory: By understanding the concept of minimum defense frequency, and that if I'm folding X% of my range, he still isn't exploiting me with his bluffs, and if he is over bluffing he is loosing money. If I know he is over bluffing, then I can call more then that and exploit him. But while I still don't have enough info about villain, I use theory to guide me and that helped me a lot, specially with mental game issues, because a lot of it is ego / not liking to get bluffed or owned by your opponent. So just understanding that folding the best hand doesn't necessarily mean your opponent is exploiting you helps a lot.
2- Working on my mental game. I got a mental game coach, read Jared Tendler's books, started meditating, etc.
Hi, Felipe, can you point me to where I can find more about this minimum defense frequency concept? thanks a lot!
Basically, MDF refers to how much we must defend vs a bet or raise to prevent an opponent from being able to profitably do it with any two cards.
A very simple example. Say an opponent bets as a bluff on the river $10 into a pot of $10. He risks $10 to win a final pot size of $20, so for this bet to be +EV it must work 50% of the time. Hence, for us to prevent us from being bluffed against recklessly, we should defend either by call or raise at least 50% of our range.
Ed Miller and Janda (in order of simplicity) both explain this but many other books and articles will I am sure.
Hi Gremista!! Danshiel explained it pretty well! You can also find more about this type of things at some of the theory videos here at Run it once, like "advanced theory principals" (or something like that) from Sean Lefort, and by searching for articles about "GTO (game theory)" in general.
Some very cool answers here, thanks all. Many of them from some of my favourite posters on this site! :)
What's interesting for me is that, whilst this is a mental game issue, I can clearly see how it will improve as my technical understanding of poker theory & hand reading improves, which is great as I can attack the problem from two sides.
I know it sounds simple but what worked for me is just letting go of the mouse after each street and clasping my hands together to give me at least a few seconds to think, stopped me from click click clicking! I used to hate facing aggression and my ego was ridiculous, felt like I was getting bullied out of a pot which is a huge leak and an awful school of thought!
Really simple but worked for me :)
I really like that tip! Sounds great!
It would be a great video on how to use CREV for this type of calculations that gametheory & arizonbay mentionned. I tried to put some stuff in it but not too clear for me on how to proceed. could you detail how can I do that on CREV?
There are posts like this in the video request thread. I asked for a ´standard´ crev tree about some flop ranges started at the beginning. So indeed constructing a reasonable cbet range, c/c range, or defense vs cbet range.
Gametheory, Arizonabay
I tried to do it again on CREV but faced some difficulties to really understand the point. when I start the three on the flop and I give let's say a PF range of CO (hero) and a flat from BU and then set up a range for CB and float like for example with your example, the EV of floating is always <0.
Did u include ur turn cbetting and c/f range?
Some great posts itt.
One thing that is not so tightly correlated with making bad river calls specifically, but should not be disregarded, is the emotional state you`re in while playing.Unless you`re Scandinavian and have no emotions :)
Having a solid foundation and game plan is great, but you should also not play when you don`t feel you`re gonna be playing your A game.
For example i`ll never play tired.I used to break down my volume in 6,7 sessions a day and always make most blunders in the last two.So i just decided not to play if i`m not well rested, or feel like i`m gonna be playing my best.
^yup
lot of it is ego.. projecting past villains who bluffed in similar spots with new villain.. the rush of picking off a bluff is a lot better for me than pulling off a bluff being a TAG... which we don't grind for the rush but we are human ... also I am not a monkey tilter I am a 'station tilter' which I realized a couple months back.. Lastly thinking through the hand clearly afterwards I almost always find a fold... playing at lower limits was a huge contributer for me
What is the difference between 9max and 6max WTSD% ?
What's the average WTSD% in 6max and 9max games ?
this is the thing im wondering as well,
WTSD% is a pretty bad stat in my opinion, because it's very general, it only tells us how often a player gets to showdown, not HOW he gets to showdowns and with what ranges.
That's a limitation in any stat, in a vacuum. There will still be a rough % that the buggest winners hover around.
As for what that is, i'm not sure for FR
hey, there is also the timeMojo software. It has two main functions. i am only using the " time randomizer" one currently, which allows me to set up certain time frames for each street before any action is triggered.
This prevents you not just from being less exploited by timing tells, but also more importantly it encourages you to get into deeper thinking process on each street.
I found out, when i come to the river with a clear game plan , which also includes considering betsizing and timing tells on prior streets, i will stick more easy on making a river decision that will also feel good regardless of making hero-fold or hero-call .
hope that helped
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